SoCal_PA Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 http://www.usatoday.com/longform/money/2014/10/14/jobs-for-college-grads-by-metro/16046989/ "Out of all high-skill occupations expected to grow at least 5% by 2017, physician assistant positions are among the jobs with both the highest growth and wage prospects. As the country deals with millions of aging Baby Boomers and more people have access to health care than ever before, both physician assistant and nurse practitioner jobs, with median wages of about $44 an hour, are expected to increase by at least 14% by 2017." How they got their data "USA TODAY analysis of workforce projections by Economic Modeling Specialists Intl., a division of CareerBuilder." Thoughts? I'd file this under "good press". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proxy Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Afraid the job market will get saturated with tons of 24 year old's 10 years down the road. As a current RRT I sometimes scratch my head in amazement by the amount of very young female PA's I run into and question if becoming a RT was even necessary. Just hope the PA profession doesn't run into saturation problems with new schools lowering standards and pumping out more students than available jobs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 it wasn't necassary to become an rt, there is little relevant patient contact. i do not feel that a larger amount of young female PAs will hurt the profession. if they are qualified then they will be an assest. the youg will be supported by the old. the experienced PAs will offset most inexperienced PR. once an md truly realizes how valuable the PA is then the word is spread. one good PA promotes the profession tremendously. I have worked with an md that hired myself and a NP. he only hires PAs from now on because he understands the importance of medical vs nursing training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted October 19, 2014 Administrator Share Posted October 19, 2014 i do not feel that a larger amount of young female PAs will hurt the profession. Then you don't understand the problem. Young female PAs are disproportionately likely to have kids, care for aging parents, or otherwise leave the workforce temporarily or permanently. They are disproportionately likely to be restricted in geographical location due to family commitments, and for this reason will be willing to take part-time or substandard wage work. Thus, the increase in young female PAs means depressed wages for ALL PAs. It's the same situation--but in reverse--as when I heard an RN a few years back encouraging young men to enter nursing, because as the proportion of males in the profession increases, so do the wages. Please, no one mistake me *describing* this reality with me *endorsing* it. There are many societal reasons why women are expected to care for children or aging parents, and I'm not discussing those here, just bringing up the reality than in a large population, a statistically significantly larger number of women will make employment decisions based on these factors. Still, people can and should make the choices that are best for them. The part that I find avoidable and tragic is young women entering the profession specifically for the supposed job flexibility and work-life balance, without the understanding of the negative impact seeking these will have on their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Then you don't understand the problem. Young female PAs are disproportionately likely to have kids, care for aging parents, or otherwise leave the workforce temporarily or permanently. They are disproportionately likely to be restricted in geographical location due to family commitments, and for this reason will be willing to take part-time or substandard wage work. Thus, the increase in young female PAs means depressed wages for ALL PAs. It's the same situation--but in reverse--as when I heard an RN a few years back encouraging young men to enter nursing, because as the proportion of males in the profession increases, so do the wages. Please, no one mistake me *describing* this reality with me *endorsing* it. There are many societal reasons why women are expected to care for children or aging parents, and I'm not discussing those here, just bringing up the reality than in a large population, a statistically significantly larger number of women will make employment decisions based on these factors. Still, people can and should make the choices that are best for them. The part that I find avoidable and tragic is young women entering the profession specifically for the supposed job flexibility and work-life balance, without the understanding of the negative impact seeking these will have on their careers. it is exactely for that reason that female PAs will have a much lower inpact on job saturation. I understand the situation but do not see it as a problem. It is the salary/wages that are affected that can be discouraging but that is why male PAs can command a higher salary. job flexibility and work life balance do not have to be a negative impact on ones carreer. that assumption is misleading at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardLPeeA Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Afraid the job market will get saturated with tons of 24 year old's 10 years down the road. As a current RRT I sometimes scratch my head in amazement by the amount of very young female PA's I run into and question if becoming a RT was even necessary. Just hope the PA profession doesn't run into saturation problems with new schools lowering standards and pumping out more students than available jobs... So oversaturation is an issue and programs are training too many PAs, but you don't count, right? Everyone else is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal_PA Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon, PA-C Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 http://www.usatoday.com/longform/money/2014/10/14/jobs-for-college-grads-by-metro/16046989/ "Out of all high-skill occupations expected to grow at least 5% by 2017, physician assistant positions are among the jobs with both the highest growth and wage prospects. As the country deals with millions of aging Baby Boomers and more people have access to health care than ever before, both physician assistant and nurse practitioner jobs, with median wages of about $44 an hour, are expected to increase by at least 14% by 2017." How they got their data "USA TODAY analysis of workforce projections by Economic Modeling Specialists Intl., a division of CareerBuilder." Thoughts? I'd file this under "good press". That sounds good except for one thing -- the production of PAs, NPs, and MDs is WAYYY above 14% MD/DO schools have essentially doubled over the last 10 years. NP schools have tripled. PA schools are also close to doubling. There's a huge job crunch coming in a few years after some of the baby boomers die off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 PA schools have more than doubled .... existing PA schools have almost all increased enrollment it seems to me. I have worked to some extent with 3 long standing programs and they have increased numbers by 100% (with plans for another 40% in another 5 years), 25%, and 10% increase in enrollment. This is all within the last 5 years. The number of new programs is terrifying and embarrassing. many of these programs have no business providing medical education and in my opinion are just looking for a pay day. They probably figure in 25 years the profession will be so saturated they will need to close the program down and already figure that into the budget. 44$ an hour is not even that good as a median salary .... maybe for the true assistant it is worthwhile ... or someone who has the perfect practice/location/hours etc .... but for everyone else who has the stress and liability and skillrequirmeet of providing fairly autonomous care for peoples lives we need a a 6 figure salary to make it worthwhile. Or else take the smart people will take their masters and PA degree and go work for mckinskey or deloitte in healthcare consulting and buy wolf of wall streets boat while we all suffer in the saturation of medicine. was that dramtic/ridiculous enough ? i think it is all partially true though. Especially the saturation part. Nobody is protecting this profession. The PAEA, AAPA, PAFT or ARC needs to say something about the expansion of programs. Where is the JAAPA editorial ? Everytime I read about the creation of ANOTHER program and recognize that the number of unqualified students will keep increasing. Every time I see a program with PANCE pass rates under 50%. it makes me realize that very quickly the issue of our profession right is not the ASSISTANT name or VA salary, rather the education saturation and quality conundrum. And the PA leaders who say the "market will figure it out" should look at the JD degree. The market did figure it out and I shudder when I hear a friend or family member going into law school with student loans. People still pay 50k a year for a JD... and they are still graduating with 50-60k salaries or better yet trading barrister for barista. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2014 http://www.usatoday.com/longform/money/2014/10/14/jobs-for-college-grads-by-metro/16046989/ "Out of all high-skill occupations expected to grow at least 5% by 2017, physician assistant positions are among the jobs with both the highest growth and wage prospects. As the country deals with millions of aging Baby Boomers and more people have access to health care than ever before, both physician assistant and nurse practitioner jobs, with median wages of about $44 an hour, are expected to increase by at least 14% by 2017." How they got their data "USA TODAY analysis of workforce projections by Economic Modeling Specialists Intl., a division of CareerBuilder." Thoughts? I'd file this under "good press". thanks for posting this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal_PA Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 This forum seems to place a negative light on everything.... I know it's good to be weary since our profession is somewhat fragile and we aren't where we would like to be, but nothing is going to happen overnight. I think things like this are good signs we are moving in the right direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggySRNA Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 ^ and who to say that every person who graduates PA school actually practices long term? I don't think saturation will happen anytime soon, if it happens at all. PAs are going into sub specialties for the same reason as MDs - burdensome loans. Maybe primary care won't be saturated for those interested in it. Sounds like my naive pre-pa thoughts are clouding my logic... If we ever want to create change in this profession, we need more PAs in the workforce. Look at our counterparts, numbers speak :D. Change won't happen if we limit the amount of PAs out there. We can't have it all. If we want respectable practice laws, we need the numbers, and we get those numbers with increasing PA Program seats, graduation, and placement. Without those numbers, the profession is at a dead end. How I see it is, we want want want, but won't give give give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2014 I'm ok with graduating lots of PAs if the quality of the grads is high....a glut of poorly trained/prepared PAs makes us all look bad. If everyone is a rock star it makes us all look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitcc1 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 This forum seems to place a negative light on everything.... I couldn't agree more! All PAs that I have talked to (in real life practices) are extremely positive about their job and the outlook of the profession! It was not until I started reading this forum that I ran into such a high prevalence of dissatisfaction with the profession! ... Too many squeaky wheels on here that DONT need grease! I can't wait for our future! And I feel that this new generation of PAs will take the profession far beyond where we already are! (So long as we keep advocating for our own practice rights :) ) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2014 I know that I sometimes contribute to a negative outlook on the profession here on the forum. I still believe it is a great profession when entered by the right people for the right reasons. In my 25+ years working with PAs I have seen a huge paradigm shift in the way applicants are evaluated and students are trained and tested. I used to believe 100% that every PA grad was a rock star and ready to jump into practice and hit the ground running. I don't feel that way anymore because the quality of grads is now inconsistent. Some are rock stars and some did the bare minimum required to get by. I worked with an EMPA the other day 3 years out of school, who didn't know how to work up a pt with DKA. This is a fairly common presentation in emergency depts. Every new grad PA (and definitely every EM PA) should have a good handle on how to do this. This type of thing reinforces my belief that we aren't graduating life-long learners. we are catering to a large group of individuals who want to belong to a "Forbes-best career for the next decade", but don't want to put in the effort to represent themselves, their profession, and their patients well. I am all for the student who strives to be the best they can be. I'm just getting tired of folks who settle for "good enough" and then tell the world that they are PAs. I continue to train students, but have become very selective about the types of students I precept and the programs I work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Every time I see a program with PANCE pass rates under 50% Do these exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2014 RC Davis and I used to talk about a future with "Type A" and Type B" PAs. I think we may be getting closer to that every year. A Type A PA has significant prior experience and/or completes a residency, accumulates significant extra training in their specialty and constantly strives to fill gaps in their knowledge and expand their scope of practice. They are proud of their profession and strive to make it better, often at great personal sacrifice. A Type B PA has little or no prior experience and has a narrow set of professional goals and/or may see being a PA as a job, not a calling to practice medicine. As long as they get their paycheck and a guaranteed vacation every year they are happy. They don't think twice when people say "physician's assistant" or hear docs say " A PA could never do XYZ" Looking at job ads today it is very obvious which types of applicants employers are looking for. places that just want a warm body who works 40 hrs/week for 70k/yr will settle for a type B. Places that basically want a skilled provider to work at the level of a doc for less money want a type A. Each of us needs to decide if in our heart of hearts we are As or Bs. If you are a B and want to become an A you can make it happen. If you are an A and want to become a B it is time to retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 ^^^The employers should make sure they keep the Type-A salaries commiserate with the work of a Type-A PA instead of trying to get away with Type-B numbers and justifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 19, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2014 Type As know what they are worth and won't work for less money or respect than they deserve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrothers98 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I agree with the type A and B differentiation. I think there are many professions where this occurs and would include physicians in this mix too. Many of our opinions on this forum are anecdotal rather than truly objective across the spectrum. There are nuggets of truth in both the negativity and positivity that is posted. I would point out that there are several broad truths to consider. The new PA grad is much different than the PA grad 20 years ago. Not good, not bad, just a reflection of society in general. The profession is still very young and needs direction. Healthcare is undergoing significant change on many levels right now and our profession is in place to take advantage of this. At the same time, the population demographics are changing and will introduce a dynamic never seen in history, a large older population that will require and demand greater health resources. Anything that is written about this may have some grounding in fact but the true effects are essentially unknown since that crystal ball thing has never been figured out. For example, when I was in PA school, the major source of information was in textbooks or resided in the experience of long time clinicians. Now it resides on my iphone to a certain extent. While the demographics of the profession may cause concern that it will become a pink collar profession, it likely will be something different than what any of us anticipate. The likelihood of one of the female PA students I teach now going part time or not working to have a family is less when they have student loan debt that equals a mortgage payment unless their partner is exceptionally successful or they move to an area of the country that has a much lower cost of living. The other likelihood to consider is that salaries exponentially increase to reflect that increase in debt and the ability to sustain it. Right now PA salary median is in the 90k range. On the other hand, there is a common statement that PAs can provide up to 85% of the care a physician can. Avg PCP salary in the US is 220k, so why is the PA salary not in the 150k plus range? The education debt load taken on today to obtain the training and degree is reflective of a much higher salary. This will likely happen. My anecdotal experience is that my salary has tripled over the course of 16 years from my base started at graduation. Much big picture stuff to wrap your mind around, difficult to do from a ground level local and even regional view. What will change in one facility, town, city, state, region will be different due to many factors. But in the aggregate, there will be plenty that will raise all boats, we just need to have a coherent vision on where to go and how to get there. I dont see that happening currently. I dont see it happening with physicians either. I do see NPs with a vision and a goal. We need to develop the same. G Brothers PA-C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 20, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2014 As usual George said what I meant, however much more articulately. Anecdotally, my salary is also 3x what it was when I got out of school almost 20 years ago. I think this is a function of both the economy in general and that I have sought out positions with a high level of autonomy and a great scope of practice and the salary, although not my primary concern, has reflected the level of positions I have worked my way into. I think the docs(especially in specialties) have a big salary adjustment coming over the next few years. We will be affected as well, but to a much lesser degree. the days of the neurosurgeon making 1.5 million/yr by billing over 1000 dollars/hr are coming to an end I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted October 20, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2014 I feel there is such pent up demand for PAs we are not anywhere close to saturation - and with the baby boomers retiring and the ACA.... well I don't see the demand lessening I do see the new grad PAs being not ready to hit the ground running..... while the regulations and rules of practice increase, and hence the residency becomes mandatory...... I do think the specialists are in for a pretty decent DOWN adjustment of pay (or maybe just held steady for years) while the true primary care fields are going to have to get raises. What the hospital systems are realizing is that the PCPs are the referral source and therefor control the purse stings... and this is valuable... And likely most PCPs will be the hospital employees. I love being a PA - I do with we could get the "A" word out of our name as it just is totally inaccurate to what we do. That and some practice law changes (VNA and Hospice at the federal level, and state changes so we can sign anything the doc's do) and we are golden....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 There certainly are regions of saturation. In the 500K metropolitan area I live in there is a PA and NP school which has saturated the two hospital systems in the city. Worse yet, the two biggest non-hospital based family practice offices won't hire mid-levels (yes, I know...some of you hate that term). That leaves very few FP mid-level jobs in town. I've only seen one open in the past two years and they only paid $65K a year, and they weren't offering great benefits. I don't think the infectious disease PAs aren't making much more than $75K a year. Ortho is paying much better, and a neuro friend is making good bank in town (although I haven't seen her in six months because she works alllll the time). I know nurses who (with various shift differentials) who are making as much in the metropolitan areas who are making nearly what the FP mid-levels are making. Move outside of the greater metropolitan area and the communities are often starving for any provider with a pulse and a script pad. They will pay VERY well if you (seem to) know what you are doing.Like others have said, you can choose any two of the three: Specialty, Location, Pay. However, like most other locations, this general area will also be starting another PA program soon (doubling the number). What will that do for saturation? I don't know, my crystal ball doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted October 20, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2014 saturation doesn't matter if you are among the best at what you do. Employers get what they pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paula Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Type A and Type B PAs? Sounds a little like the Type A and Type B PA schools from yesteryear. Remember the article in PA professional a couple of years ago? The Type A schools turned out the highest level of PA and came from Physician Associate programs. The type B and C were lesser schools who trained a more dependent provider or mid-level who could not practice on their own. The Type A schools wanted to stand apart from the others.....Dr. Stead's dream to push us to autonomy eventually, I think. AMA said NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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