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Doctoral Degree for PAs


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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in terms of practice (scope of, pay for clinical work, acknowledgement in the workplace) isn't it much more important to be licensed, clinically, as a doctor than it is to earn an academic doctorate (that requires one to leave the realm of clinical practice in order to be acknowledged as a doctor)?  We're seeing the same fight happening right now among audiologists, physical therapists, as well as acupuncturists (believe it or not).  All are LICENSED without "doctor" anywhere in the name (SLP and LAc) in MOST states.  Yet, academically, they're all shifting to "First Professional Doctorate" status, meaning they go to school for 4 years, earn an academic doctorate, and then sit for state licensing exams.  Sure, academically and at cocktail parties they can be called "doctor," but in a clinical setting (that contain MDs, at least) they certainly cannot (typically, in my experience).  Chiropractors and Naturopaths have been much smarter in fighting for their "doctor" title, in my opinion.  A longer road, but at the end of the process, they are LICENSED by their states as DC and ND (both Doctor), meaning--like MDs and DOs--their ACADEMIC DEGREE AND LICENSE NAMES MATCH PERFECTLY.  An MD, DO, ND, and DC all graduate with those exact designations on their diplomas and go on to receive those matching letters on their state licenses.  For us, a DMS in a classroom is still a PA-C in the clinic.  Big difference...

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in terms of practice (scope of, pay for clinical work, acknowledgement in the workplace) isn't it much more important to be licensed, clinically, as a doctor than it is to earn an academic doctorate (that requires one to leave the realm of clinical practice in order to be acknowledged as a doctor)?  We're seeing the same fight happening right now among audiologists, physical therapists, as well as acupuncturists (believe it or not).  All are LICENSED without "doctor" anywhere in the name (SLP and LAc) in MOST states.  Yet, academically, they're all shifting to "First Professional Doctorate" status, meaning they go to school for 4 years, earn an academic doctorate, and then sit for state licensing exams.  Sure, academically and at cocktail parties they can be called "doctor," but in a clinical setting (that contain MDs, at least) they certainly cannot (typically, in my experience).  Chiropractors and Naturopaths have been much smarter in fighting for their "doctor" title, in my opinion.  A longer road, but at the end of the process, they are LICENSED by their states as DC and ND (both Doctor), meaning--like MDs and DOs--their ACADEMIC DEGREE AND LICENSE NAMES MATCH PERFECTLY.  An MD, DO, ND, and DC all graduate with those exact designations on their diplomas and go on to receive those matching letters on their state licenses.  For us, a DMS in a classroom is still a PA-C in the clinic.  Big difference...

A DMSc competes on even ground against a DNP. some folks working in HR know nothing about the difference between a pa and an np but know the difference between an ms and a doctorate.

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A DMSc competes on even ground against a DNP. some folks working in HR know nothing about the difference between a pa and an np but know the difference between an ms and a doctorate.

Valid points. ^ among the reasons we should all pursue a doctorate degree. Do it online. DHSc. Get a doctorate ppl! Do it online. They (NP) are throwing it at our face and claiming superiority at work place, local and national level. We're been left behind. I can understand if you're a PA and reaching retirement to push against a doctorate. Hey. The landscape of things has changed. It has and drastically. We're becoming a second class citizens. Sadly but true.

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Do you think it would be a positive or negative thing to combine the doctorate w/ a residency? It could get messy but at the same time those who want to specialize could do so while obtaining the doctorate....plus shouldn't PAs focus be on providing competent medical care and more clinical training hrs would be good for us anyway? Looks like Baylor is doing sort of that (with the EM focus) and it makes sense to me. But that really isn't saying much :)

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Do you think it would be a positive or negative thing to combine the doctorate w/ a residency? It could get messy but at the same time those who want to specialize could do so while obtaining the doctorate....plus shouldn't PAs focus be on providing competent medical care and more clinical training hrs would be good for us anyway? Looks like Baylor is doing sort of that (with the EM focus) and it makes sense to me. But that really isn't saying much :)

yup, baylor has a great model. would love to see other programs do the same.

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There are online doctorate programs. ATSU has one, Nova and others as well. Thing is it is not a strictly clinical doctorate in the sense of a MD/DO or even the (for now) imaginary "DMS. " I thought of doing a DHSc but I'm waiting for other options. Hopefully a "DMS. " I think it would be great to do a residency with it like the Baylor program for the army.

 

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you will probably be able to do the Lynchburg 9 month post-master's DPAM at some point, but would have to relocate for the 9 month clinical component.

Yeah I'm hoping we have more (better?) options down the line in a few years.

 

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Hopefully it won't require relocation. Do you think "outside students" will be able to do their clinical in their home states? Or they could coordinate with the other residencies/fellowships already in existence to allow that to count as precepting. I just can't see uprooting to Lynchburg.

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I am sure lynchburg will be a wonderful experience. But before people consider signing up lets see what it exactly provides students. If it is the typical DNP experience it will not be worth it. Get a doctoral degree in something different which offers greater knowledge and career opportunities. But if this truly offers enhanced research skills, science writing, leadership/education skills, perhaps some more in depth clinical exploration in the individuals area of expertise by all means. 

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I am sure lynchburg will be a wonderful experience. But before people consider signing up lets see what it exactly provides students. If it is the typical DNP experience it will not be worth it. Get a doctoral degree in something different which offers greater knowledge and career opportunities. But if this truly offers enhanced research skills, science writing, leadership/education skills, perhaps some more in depth clinical exploration in the individuals area of expertise by all means. 

 

or if it is a quick and easy thing that is affordable and elevates every PA to a doctoral level that will have a huge impact on the political arena where politicians only know the very superficial nature of things

 

We already do enough to get a clinical doctorate.  We don't need to go back and spend another 5 years to earn a PhD, and in fact almost every other non physician medical profession has already figured this out, or is figuring it out right now.

 

If I wanted to be a researcher I would go get a PhD, if I wanted to be a doc I would get an MD, if I wanted to be a nurse I would get a DNP, why can't I get a doctorate as a PA? 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in terms of practice (scope of, pay for clinical work, acknowledgement in the workplace) isn't it much more important to be licensed, clinically, as a doctor than it is to earn an academic doctorate (that requires one to leave the realm of clinical practice in order to be acknowledged as a doctor)?  We're seeing the same fight happening right now among audiologists, physical therapists, as well as acupuncturists (believe it or not).  All are LICENSED without "doctor" anywhere in the name (SLP and LAc) in MOST states.  Yet, academically, they're all shifting to "First Professional Doctorate" status, meaning they go to school for 4 years, earn an academic doctorate, and then sit for state licensing exams.  Sure, academically and at cocktail parties they can be called "doctor," but in a clinical setting (that contain MDs, at least) they certainly cannot (typically, in my experience).  Chiropractors and Naturopaths have been much smarter in fighting for their "doctor" title, in my opinion.  A longer road, but at the end of the process, they are LICENSED by their states as DC and ND (both Doctor), meaning--like MDs and DOs--their ACADEMIC DEGREE AND LICENSE NAMES MATCH PERFECTLY.  An MD, DO, ND, and DC all graduate with those exact designations on their diplomas and go on to receive those matching letters on their state licenses.  For us, a DMS in a classroom is still a PA-C in the clinic.  Big difference...

 

 

The point you are missing is the POLITICAL REALM

 

We are getting left behind - think HiTech funds - well the ASSISTANT must be covered by the PHYSICIAN so lets not bother listing them

 

Politicians understand MS versus Doctorate

 

They don't understand how truly hard PA school is and how a direct access DNP program is far easier then even a typical PA program and the quality of ouput is far higher for the PA program, yet we are hampered by our lack of a doctorate, dependent status, and less then stellar political vision in the past.  We can change the programs to a doctorate level, and I am guess this will be a pull issue by current PAs instead of a push issue from our national agency.    We can  not change the "dependent" practice*, and we are doing FAR BETTER in the political realm.   So by placing us on even footing (for the work we already do) with the other non physician medical fields we are merely keeping up.

 

I do hear Physical Therapists introducing themselves as Doctor SoSo and have seen them sign Doctor SoSo DPT - 

 

The days of ignoring the initials after one's name and just providing good care are history.  We provide great care and we should be recognized for it.

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To be honest if I could get a DPAM (even though I don't like the name but at least it's not a DPAP or a DPAS) in 9 mo to 1 yr, cheap and easy and be on par with the DPT , DPharm or the DNP then I do it. It would be even better if you could do it at the same time you were doing another residency not just the Lynchburg residency.

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I'm going to sign Emedpa PA, DHSc on my charts and scripts, etc, but won't introduce myself as Dr emedpa outside of an academic environment. If I write a letter to a politician, etc it will say

Emedpa PA, DHSc

Emergency Med PA

Doctor of Health Science & Global Health

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I am sensitive to the US University arena creating programs that do not provide the best resources or functional skill set and charging absurd amounts of money. Interesting conversation froma nurse researcher who expressed concerns (and backed it up with some theory and survey data) the DNP entry degree might hurt the profession. 1)it slows down NPs from getting into the workforce full time. He estimated out of all NPs (those practicing as RN or NP level, or something non clinical) only 28% actually see primary care patients. There are just under 200k NP in the US.   2) It is added expense. Someone present said it adds close to 20k onto tuition costs over MSN. Paid back over a 10 year period how much money does that 20k translate into  ? 35k ? This may prevent people from practicing in areas where it is needed the most.

 

I am looking fwd to what lychburg is doing. I hope they are able to gather a collection of faculty that can really bring quality education. My guess is they will need to rely on a distance learning format in order to get these PA and other appropriate academics involved.

 

I was not considering Ventana's points as much as I should have perhaps. Noted.

 

It would be great if lynchburg can use this collection of doctoral program faculty to start research colloboration. Maybe the admin asst they hire for the program can have some grantwork experience. Start with a few small projects. The profession is starving for real health outcome data, workforce trends, and theory to apply to every day practice. This is holding the profession back to some extent IMO.

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This is because Masters degree education requires that near 100% of instructors hold doctorate degree...

 

 

A university or PA Department may have this as an official or unofficial policy but there is no university or ARC PA accreditation that states a % of faculty must be doctorally trained in a given PA program. Most University recognize MA / PA as the professions terminal degree and will award faculty appointment based on that. A doctoral degree demonstrates commitment and a certain skill set, and also provides the tools for a career in academics so I can see how it is favorable at times. In theory. 

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The majority of PA doctoral degrees do not give adequate preparation to become high output workforce and policy researchers. If you completed a DHSc at one of the common PA programs and wanted to become a major player in research you would need to find a post doc in order to further your skills. I know a few PAs in higher level research rolls and most of them went down a traditional doctoral road. The new director of injury research at NYU medical school is a former EM Chief PA who I am sure would like to return to clinical practice when he is able to do so.  

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