Doctoral Degree for PAs

[LESH]

I would assume any PA program granting a DMS would require at least one faculty member(likely the director) to possess a doctorate themselves. not every member of the faculty would need one. Many MS programs today still have folks teaching without MS degrees as they are "subject experts".

True that Emed. I just finished lecturing at an MS program. At least out our way...but at academia's terminal degree level I think things change.

[gbrothers98]

The sad part is a lot of the programs are approaching 3 years. My program is 29 months long. The 24 month programs are now called "accelerated" programs.

I dont think this is sad. I think from what I have observed and what I have read on this forum that todays younger grads without significant HCE needs some more time to 'cook'. The terminal degrees for PT, PharmD all are 3-4 yr degrees. While I understand the desire to be done in 2 years, medicine is a very complicated profession. An insight is that PT and Pharm are only a specific area of medicine and the requirement is longer than PA school!

I think the profession is potentially doing itself harm releasing grads into the job market after 2 years. This forum is rife with stories from new grads that are unhappy, taken advantage of or outright fail at their first jobs. Unfortunately there will be some individuals that could do the 2 years and do well but I think that is few. I do think extension of time in training will allow more clinical time for new grads. At a minimum another 6 months in clinical rotation, with longer time at each rotation would provide more experience for new grads. They could even attempt to concentrate some of this time specifically in an area they want to work in ie inpt med, ED, outpt med, specialty.

For those that believe that this will be a deal breaker and should just go to medical school, I would refresh their memory that med school is usually 4 yrs, residency is 3-5 years. So math. Any anticipation of cutting med school short with an accelerated program gets one to 3 years. After finishing , the flexibility enjoyed as a PA with potential job change is limited thanks to residency and specialization.

G Brothers PA-C

[RichardLPeeA]

I dont think this is sad. I think from what I have observed and what I have read on this forum that todays younger grads without significant HCE needs some more time to 'cook'. The terminal degrees for PT, PharmD all are 3-4 yr degrees. While I understand the desire to be done in 2 years, medicine is a very complicated profession. An insight is that PT and Pharm are only a specific area of medicine and the requirement is longer than PA school!

I think the profession is potentially doing itself harm releasing grads into the job market after 2 years. This forum is rife with stories from new grads that are unhappy, taken advantage of or outright fail at their first jobs. Unfortunately there will be some individuals that could do the 2 years and do well but I think that is few. I do think extension of time in training will allow more clinical time for new grads. At a minimum another 6 months in clinical rotation, with longer time at each rotation would provide more experience for new grads. They could even attempt to concentrate some of this time specifically in an area they want to work in ie inpt med, ED, outpt med, specialty.

For those that believe that this will be a deal breaker and should just go to medical school, I would refresh their memory that med school is usually 4 yrs, residency is 3-5 years. So math. Any anticipation of cutting med school short with an accelerated program gets one to 3 years. After finishing , the flexibility enjoyed as a PA with potential job change is limited thanks to residency and specialization.

G Brothers PA-C

In my opinion, 2 years masters + 1 year residency  >  3 years masters.  At least with the residency you have actual job experience and are getting paid. 

[gbrothers98]

In my opinion, 2 years masters + 1 year residency  >  3 years masters.  At least with the residency you have actual job experience and are getting paid. 

IMO 3 years doctorate > 2 yrs master

I support the residency concept, I just dont see enough developing to meet demand unless there is funding from govt gme sources.

Take the # of all PA residency spots available in a year, it likely does not allow for more than 10% of all new PA grads much less a practicing PA whom wants to make a career change.

GB PA-C

[RichardLPeeA]

IMO 3 years doctorate > 2 yrs master

I support the residency concept, I just dont see enough developing to meet demand unless there is funding from govt gme sources.

Take the # of all PA residency spots available in a year, it likely does not allow for more than 10% of all new PA grads much less a practicing PA whom wants to make a career change.

GB PA-C

I respect your opinion, but for me, I'd still take a 2 year master's rather than a 3 year doctorate.  In that one year in clinical practice you will likely be learning much more than you would in the classroom, and actually be making money.

I think residencies serve their purpose fine now (that is to say, most people don't do them, they aren't required, but they are available).  They certainly help new grads become more marketable, and gain skills that otherwise would take much longer to hone.  That's why I decided to do one.

 

[Joelseff]

I dont think this is sad. I think from what I have observed and what I have read on this forum that todays younger grads without significant HCE needs some more time to 'cook'. The terminal degrees for PT, PharmD all are 3-4 yr degrees. While I understand the desire to be done in 2 years, medicine is a very complicated profession. An insight is that PT and Pharm are only a specific area of medicine and the requirement is longer than PA school!

I think the profession is potentially doing itself harm releasing grads into the job market after 2 years. This forum is rife with stories from new grads that are unhappy, taken advantage of or outright fail at their first jobs. Unfortunately there will be some individuals that could do the 2 years and do well but I think that is few. I do think extension of time in training will allow more clinical time for new grads. At a minimum another 6 months in clinical rotation, with longer time at each rotation would provide more experience for new grads. They could even attempt to concentrate some of this time specifically in an area they want to work in ie inpt med, ED, outpt med, specialty.

For those that believe that this will be a deal breaker and should just go to medical school, I would refresh their memory that med school is usually 4 yrs, residency is 3-5 years. So math. Any anticipation of cutting med school short with an accelerated program gets one to 3 years. After finishing , the flexibility enjoyed as a PA with potential job change is limited thanks to residency and specialization.

G Brothers PA-C

 

 

I mostly agree but the last paragraph. What will happen to our flexibility to move to other specialties now that CAQs are in place? I have already seen mutiple job postings in my area that state "additional credentialing in specialty highly recommended" It's not a great leap for them to require this. This would eliminate the possibility of me (who has been practicing FP/HIV for the past 3 years) to even qualify for the CAQ since I dont have 2 years in the specialty (unless the CAQ requirement has changed). I know this is off topic but one I have had to think about and answer when asked by newer PAs.

[RichardLPeeA]

I mostly agree but the last paragraph. What will happen to our flexibility to move to other specialties now that CAQs are in place? I have already seen mutiple job postings in my area that state "additional credentialing in specialty highly recommended" It's not a great leap for them to require this. This would eliminate the possibility of me (who has been practicing FP/HIV for the past 3 years) to even qualify for the CAQ since I dont have 2 years in the specialty (unless the CAQ requirement has changed). I know this is off topic but one I have had to think about and answer when asked by newer PAs

By seeking someone with a CAQ, they are saying: "we want to hire someone we don't have to sit around and train".  There will always be jobs that are open to new grads, inexperienced PAs, or PAs without CAQ so long as they are willing to price themselves into the market

[gbrothers98]

I mostly agree but the last paragraph. What will happen to our flexibility to move to other specialties now that CAQs are in place? I have already seen mutiple job postings in my area that state "additional credentialing in specialty highly recommended" It's not a great leap for them to require this. This would eliminate the possibility of me (who has been practicing FP/HIV for the past 3 years) to even qualify for the CAQ since I dont have 2 years in the specialty (unless the CAQ requirement has changed). I know this is off topic but one I have had to think about and answer when asked by newer PAs.

A job posting like this is looking for the experienced.

Anybody that is knowledgable about the CAQ process knows that you need 3000 hours of work experience in order to sit for the CAQ.

So in essence they want someone whom has worked for a year and half who has taken an exam.

As for it limiting flexibility, CAQs may but the PA job market is already there to a certain extent with the division between those who have experience and those who dont.

Plus additional credentialing can mean many other things such as ACLS, ATLS, PALS, critical care course, airway course, EM bootcamps and/or EM academy.

And I think if I wanted to work in a primary care office or become a hospitalist PA, even though I have only worked in an ED for the last decade and half, I likely would be able to get seriously considered as a candidate.

I think a pediatrician would not get similar consideration to join an internal medicine practice and definitely not a surgical practice.

Regards

G Brothers PA-C

[gbrothers98]

I respect your opinion, but for me, I'd still take a 2 year master's rather than a 3 year doctorate.  In that one year in clinical practice you will likely be learning much more than you would in the classroom, and actually be making money.

I think residencies serve their purpose fine now (that is to say, most people don't do them, they aren't required, but they are available).  They certainly help new grads become more marketable, and gain skills that otherwise would take much longer to hone.  That's why I decided to do one.

 

You are fortunate to have been accepted into a residency, I think the odds are against the general new grad population that wants in to one.

I am focusing on that I think a majority of new PA grads are likely not as well prepared by the 2 year education than they would be with 3, especially more clinical time.

I would assume that the PT doctorates and the PharmDs would want out after 2 years to start earning the bucks. I get that.

But from what I observe with new grads and what I read from new grads on this forum, I believe the profession as a whole may benefit from more extensive training than the 2 years provides.

The advancement to a doctorate will happen, it took multiple years to get all PA programs to a master's, I graduated in 98, my program started it's first master's class in 2005, so first graduating master's class in 2007.

Look for one of the more well known PA programs to take the lead in the next few years. We can hold a pool to see which one goes first. I get first choice since I came up with the idea.

If anyone has been following the VA salary and military doctorate topics, NPs are going to get paid more due to holding a doctorate. Military PAs will rarely get past captain or O-3 unless they get a doctorate.

It will happen, just likely not in the time frame that some want it to happen now. Someone needs to be in front of the curve.

G Brothers PA-C

[RichardLPeeA]

You are fortunate to have been accepted into a residency, I think the odds are against the general new grad population that wants in to one.

I am focusing on that I think a majority of new PA grads are likely not as well prepared by the 2 year education than they would be with 3, especially more clinical time.

I would assume that the PT doctorates and the PharmDs would want out after 2 years to start earning the bucks. I get that.

But from what I observe with new grads and what I read from new grads on this forum, I believe the profession as a whole may benefit from more extensive training than the 2 years provides.

The advancement to a doctorate will happen, it took multiple years to get all PA programs to a master's, I graduated in 98, my program started it's first master's class in 2005, so first graduating master's class in 2007.

Look for one of the more well known PA programs to take the lead in the next few years. We can hold a pool to see which one goes first. I get first choice since I came up with the idea.

If anyone has been following the VA salary and military doctorate topics, NPs are going to get paid more due to holding a doctorate. Military PAs will rarely get past captain or O-3 unless they get a doctorate.

It will happen, just likely not in the time frame that some want it to happen now. Someone needs to be in front of the curve.

G Brothers PA-C

I had a discussion with my friend about this.  I actually like the idea of doing 1 year didactic, 1 year of required rotations, then another year of elective rotations, along with board review if you have to have a three year program. 

 

[EMEDPA]

I had a discussion with my friend about this.  I actually like the idea of doing 1 year didactic, 1 year of required rotations, then another year of elective rotations, along with board review if you have to have a three year program. 

 

if you call that year of elective rotations an internship or residency I would like that option as well. It could be a 3 yr program with an interval MMS granted after year 2 and a DMS after completion of year 3. that is basically what Dr Welsh's program at lynchburg will do, although the doctorate continuation portion will be optional.

http://www.lynchburg.edu/department-physician-assistant-medicine/physician-assistant-doctoral-option

[primadonna22274]

Now this idea I could support. If it's a structured program like a traditional intern year (3 mos into my PGY1 I cannot believe how much I've learned compared to how much I did NOT learn in med school or PA school, not to mention 14 yr of practice...but I've never done inpatient medicine so it's kicking my butt!!) I think the PA would be well-prepared and a doctoral degree at the end of that makes sense to me. At this point though the DMS PA really needs to qualify for independent practice on the level of the old GP--a specialty that has pretty much disappeared. Either we resurrect it for highly motivated PAs or we revamp the whole PA-physician education and licensing concept. I still like the idea of a medical model education continuum where we all start from a common beginning and then have the opportunity to jump off at structured points for dependent vs independent practice.

 

if you call that year of elective rotations an internship or residency I would like that option as well. It could be a 3 yr program with an interval MMS granted after year 2 and a DMS after completion of year 3. that is basically what Dr Welsh's program at lynchburg will do, although the doctorate continuation portion will be optional.

http://www.lynchburg.edu/department-physician-assistant-medicine/physician-assistant-doctoral-option

[SoCalPA]

How about 24 months PA Education = MMS Degree + 12 month Residency = DMS Degree?  Wouldn't that standardize the PA programs so that there are no more 26 months, 27 months, 33 months. That would seem to address the "extra tuition" paid to PA Programs. 

 

Can an Academic or Academic Affiliated Institution grant the Doctorate Degree?

[csmmedic]

Question from a pre-pa; why on earth did programs decide to call their masters degree a "master of physician assistant studies?" It almost seems to me almost lazy at best, and a snub to their graduates at worst. Also, from the naive perspective of medic who wants to apply next cycle, a 24 month MMS program and then a year long "residency" (hopefully in EM for me) that grants a doctorate, sounds optimal. The paramedic "profession" has continuously failed to get its educational house in order and thus we are still have areas where we can be supervised by RNs (Los Angeles). I don't want my future profession to screw up education aw well. 

[SoCalPA]

csmmedic I am a pre-pa too.  Applying now.  I think it's an ideal path to a doctorate as well.  I too want to practice EM. I am thinking that if I want to do more than Fast Track I will likely have to do an EM Residency.  Seasoned PAs correct me if i'm wrong.  

 

Also, I think i am already seeing a trend of PA Program Chairs/Directors/Deans positions being held by DHSc and other doctoral degreed PAs.  Are more and more PA Programs requiring this?

[RichardLPeeA]

if you call that year of elective rotations an internship or residency I would like that option as well. It could be a 3 yr program with an interval MMS granted after year 2 and a DMS after completion of year 3. that is basically what Dr Welsh's program at lynchburg will do, although the doctorate continuation portion will be optional.

http://www.lynchburg.edu/department-physician-assistant-medicine/physician-assistant-doctoral-option

You see, we turned this into a good idea, without having a shout match flame war.  *high five*.  I still personally see doctorate as a sign of education inflation, and it isn't for me, but more power to those who go for it.  But if that program pays you during the residency then that is more than fair, and a good idea for anyone looking into becoming a PA

[Acromion]

no, no, no, a thousand times NO to a doctoral PA degree!!

 

NO to more EMPTY CREDENTIALISM!

NO to more DEGREE CREEP!!

NO to more DEBT!!!

 

PA's are not behind the curve, they ahead of the curve - for not giving into degree creep, credentialism, and more and more DEBT!

 

Everyone else is talking about how to reduce the cost of education, how to reduce the cost of medical care, yet some here advocate the opposite, when we already belong to one of the fastest growing, most in demand professions DESPITE NOT HAVING A DOCTORATE.

 

Reality: You don't need a PhD to make hearing aids. You don't need a PhD to teach grandma how to get on the toilet or use a fork. You don't need a doctorate to fill prescriptions at a CVS.

 

The terminal degree in the profession we practice in is already established: MD/DO (who are themselves  consolidating themselves under a unified ACGME) Make a PA doctorate and you have carved out a seperate profession.

 

Higher Ed is a huge scam in many ways. Sickeningly expensive when information is freely available on the internet. You can access the best medical teachers online. Visit pathoma.com or drnajeeblectures.com, ect. . . to see how things are changing; credentialism is for the birds. Let's make a new way forward. Other countries seem to get along just fine training their doctors with Bachelor Degrees in Medicine, yet some people here want to have a doctorate for Physician Assistants. Fine, make PA school 3 years, make it more rigorous, make it for the best and the brightest. We are well positioned, as in demand as we are, to attract the best and perhaps tack on a few months to pull us a bit closer to the MD's or DO's. 

 

Medical practices will consolidating into large corporations, who don't give a hoot about the title after your name. They care about COMPETENCE, not TITLES. They care about how many patients you can see and how safely you can diagnose and treat them. The days of Dr. Welby are over. Stop trying to pull our profession back into the stone ages to compete with all the other "me too's" who want to be called "Doctor."  The lunacy of credentialism can't survive the economic realities of practicing medicine these days.

 

And stop comparing ourselves to the DNP's. That degree is total smoke and mirrors. They aren't prepared to teach medicine at a doctoral level. They put the cart before the horse, the credentials before the "meat."  Example: a DNP I know did her doctoral thesis in "The Spirituality Heart Failure." Nice, I'm sure, but totally f'ing useless in clinical practice. They may be making strides politically but from what I know about medicine, there's no place to hide. You either know what you're doing or you don't. The folks who butter our bread understand that.

[db_pavnp]

It must be said, though, that large corporations do care about degrees and compensate differently for them.  At least in some (many?) cases they do.

[csmmedic]

Acromion, I agree that the DNP is degree is probably crap. I have family in nursing that have told me the same. However, the substance of a DHSc or what EMEDPA calls a DMS, would differ substantially from the DNP degree. A 12 month residency in a clinical specialty, completed after a masters PA program, isn't even in the same ballpark as a online, distance program that awards a doctorate after "advanced nursing theory for management" courses. 

 

 

 

Higher Ed is a huge scam in many ways. Sickeningly expensive when information is freely available on the internet. You can access the best medical teachers online. Visit pathoma.com or drnajeeblectures.com, ect. . . to see how things are changing; credentialism is for the birds. Let's make a new way forward. Other countries seem to get along just fine training their doctors with Bachelor Degrees in Medicine, yet some people here want to have a doctorate for Physician Assistants. Fine, make PA school 3 years, make it more rigorous, make it for the best and the brightest. We are well positioned, as in demand as we are, to attract the best and perhaps tack on a few months to pull us a bit closer to the MD's or DO's. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, attitudes like this are gaining popularity and people are rushing to declare the death of the traditional university. I cannot possibly begin to completely rebut that claim, but it will suffice to say that at the moment, no PA or MD program considers MOOCs acceptable for pre-reqs (many do, however, accept online courses from accredited colleges), and no employers in health care that I am aware of recognize non-credentialed online coursework. My own school's health system pays PAs lower than NPs because of the degree that each profession has decided to make mandatory for the entry-level (no degree for PAs, and masters and soon DNP for nursing. There are still many certificate programs in CA).

 

While I am pre-pa, these are things I worry about because I have seen the role of the paramedic crash and burn because they lacked the drive to even make an AS mandatory for licensing. In the future, I will not make the mistake of entering another health profession that dooms itself to stagnation or worse because it is internally convinced that it needs to go no further and everybody else on the outside will understand. 

[cinntsp]

PA's are not behind the curve, they ahead of the curve - for not giving into degree creep, credentialism, and more and more DEBT!

 

You're kidding yourself.

 

 

 

Make a PA doctorate and you have carved out a seperate profession.

 

Exactly.  We should be carving out a separate profession.  We are not MD-lite.  We are PAs and should stand on our own two legs with our own terminal degree.

[ventana]

no, no, no, a thousand times NO to a doctoral PA degree!!

 

NO to more EMPTY CREDENTIALISM!

NO to more DEGREE CREEP!!

NO to more DEBT!!!

 

PA's are not behind the curve, they ahead of the curve - for not giving into degree creep, credentialism, and more and more DEBT!

 

Everyone else is talking about how to reduce the cost of education, how to reduce the cost of medical care, yet some here advocate the opposite, when we already belong to one of the fastest growing, most in demand professions DESPITE NOT HAVING A DOCTORATE.

 

Reality: You don't need a PhD to make hearing aids. You don't need a PhD to teach grandma how to get on the toilet or use a fork. You don't need a doctorate to fill prescriptions at a CVS.

 

The terminal degree in the profession we practice in is already established: MD/DO (who are themselves  consolidating themselves under a unified ACGME) Make a PA doctorate and you have carved out a seperate profession.

 

Higher Ed is a huge scam in many ways. Sickeningly expensive when information is freely available on the internet. You can access the best medical teachers online. Visit pathoma.com or drnajeeblectures.com, ect. . . to see how things are changing; credentialism is for the birds. Let's make a new way forward. Other countries seem to get along just fine training their doctors with Bachelor Degrees in Medicine, yet some people here want to have a doctorate for Physician Assistants. Fine, make PA school 3 years, make it more rigorous, make it for the best and the brightest. We are well positioned, as in demand as we are, to attract the best and perhaps tack on a few months to pull us a bit closer to the MD's or DO's. 

 

Medical practices will consolidating into large corporations, who don't give a hoot about the title after your name. They care about COMPETENCE, not TITLES. They care about how many patients you can see and how safely you can diagnose and treat them. The days of Dr. Welby are over. Stop trying to pull our profession back into the stone ages to compete with all the other "me too's" who want to be called "Doctor."  The lunacy of credentialism can't survive the economic realities of practicing medicine these days.

 

And stop comparing ourselves to the DNP's. That degree is total smoke and mirrors. They aren't prepared to teach medicine at a doctoral level. They put the cart before the horse, the credentials before the "meat."  Example: a DNP I know did her doctoral thesis in "The Spirituality Heart Failure." Nice, I'm sure, but totally f'ing useless in clinical practice. They may be making strides politically but from what I know about medicine, there's no place to hide. You either know what you're doing or you don't. The folks who butter our bread understand that.

 

 

I appreciate the opinion, I assume you are either an employee of a corporation, or with a great doc and not fending for yourself

 

However, the reality of it - is FAR different

Being left out of Hitech personally cost me $44,000! (why would "Assistant" need to be a provider) and the barriers to practice ownership and practicing medicine with out restrictive useless barriers has a HUGE negative effect on PA as a profession

 

If memory serves me correctly you are fairly new to being a PA?  I bring this up not to poke fun, or to discount, but instead to point out that as you practice you tend to gain a whole new different understanding of what makes the medical world tic.  You truly need to work across a few specialties, and interact with a large number of long time established, experienced PAs to really get an understanding of the entire profession.  Initially I think we were all so excited to be practicing that some of the smaller barriers were not of importance, but as you truly become and independent thinker (and provider) then you start to realize the barriers that are in place.  

 

I also do not understand how anyone in the this country thinks that names, and perceptions do not make a HUGE difference.  Advertising has been proven to work beyond the shadow of a doubt - yet there are many PAs that hold onto the notion of "just do a great job" and everything will be okay.  This is just an incredibly naive idea which time has come and gone - we MUST pay attention to the political realm as the policy is formed there that goes on to effect us all.  Case in point - practices are hiring NP over PA as they can get HiTech money (I can't blame them and even as a PA practice owner I would prefer to hire a Doc (or gulp) an NP as this is a LOT of money on the table that I can not access).  Inability to sign death certs in my state, as well as inability to deliver hospice care means that PA are actually loosing jobs to NP  -  this is the reality of medicine in the USA and to think that we do not have to " keep up with the other professions" and to actively protect what is our realm - is naive and dangerous for our profession. 

 

 

I truly believe you need > 10 years of practice in multiple fields to really get a handle on the PA as a profession - you need to see different systems, different jobs, different locations to understand what is going on.  I also truly value everyone having input - but lets use the same ideas that a 2nd yr PA is highly unlikely to be stronger then a 20+ yr PA, and look towards the "senior" PAs for some direction.  Luckily a LARGE group of SENIOR PAs who have a true understanding of the situation have formed PAFT - and if you would read and listen to their statements I think it would be helpful to the profession as a whole.   

 

 

 

And final parting thought - I agree with you on the strength of the DNP program, and yet they are still earning a doctoral level degree, and firmly beating us in the political realm on almost every issue.  If we are better educated, do we not deserve at least the same credentials, and recognition (recognition helps break down barriers and protect the field for future generations) 

[navyflyPAC]

could not disagree with you any more - you seem to not understand where the profession and health care is going and I know in the past you have tried to defend the AAPA's lack of action which has left PAs behind.....

 

 

It is essential for us to have a clinical doctorate degree - the number of health professions that have this already is staggering and growing (PT, OT, SLP, nursing, and a whole slew of others).  We do not want to be doctors (MD/DO) however we do need to get the respect and recognition we deserve.  Would you rather see a Doctor of NP or an assistant?  This is a a very real issue and one that I truly think needs to get resolved.  Logic is lost to most the general public, and certainly congress and the agencies that are writing policy - if every other profession is getting clinical doctorates we need to as well.  There have been a few cases recently where I was the only one who was NOT at the doctorate level caring for a patient, yet I was the one giving the orders...   patient doing to PT (DPT), wound clinic (DNP) and got home care from another DNP...... 

 

 

I will use myself as an example - 13 years of out PA school, 3 mortgages, one child, and the real cost of me going back to med school approaches a million dollars - in my mid 40's I would be a physician in my mid 50's and how do I possibly pay back the loans at that time.  All I want is to be able to practice at the top of my license and sign the forms and care for the patients in the way I already know how to. I don't want, need and feel the desire to wholesale my life for 7 years to do the EXACT same job I do currently.....

 

 

I am sorry, but in this case I think you opinion is wrong, outdated, and actually harmful to our profession. 

 

I am not sorry if my words are strong - we have got to move forward and stop this silly debate - we should be granting DPA to all our graduates and allowing a bridge program for MS or BS PAs currently

Not to agree or disagree with anyone here.....these other professions mentioned all have autonomous practice privileges (with or without Doctorate).  A doctorate level degree presented to PA's will not change the fact that we are tied to the ankle of physicians therefore can never truly advance like these other professions have.  What we need more than initials after our names is an actual change in the name of the profession and legislation passed that allows us to work in an autonomous fashion as do PT's, NP's, SLP's OT's, etc.  Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this.

[db_pavnp]

Sometimes you need to change your initials if you need better leverage.  Approaching the problem from only one direction makes the job twice as hard.

 

I do like Acromion's sentiments regarding higher ed, though, and I assume all who agree are supportive of my efforts to challenge the PANCE.  I have a BS in Micro from a big 10 school and as there are PA programs that award a BS, this is a lateral move for me.

[SocialMedicine]

Not that anyone cares but my two cents .....   PA schools are fine to offer doctoral degrees but not  necessarily a clinical doctoral. Maybe a doctorate in health sciences w focus in public health or education ? Like that nova and arizona program. PA schools need to expand in terms of research, versatility, and offer more than a PA degree for universities and society. However we DO NOT NEED MORE PA programs in my opinion. I am confident we will hit saturation. And the last thing I want to see is a PA student spending 120k in loans (paid back at probably 300k over 15 years) for a DOCTORATE in PA who will graduate to earn 70k. If we were controlling the marker better the doctorate would make more sense. Audiologist is a good analogy here ... as is the JD degree. 

[ventana]

Not that anyone cares but my two cents .....   PA schools are fine to offer doctoral degrees but not  necessarily a clinical doctoral. Maybe a doctorate in health sciences w focus in public health or education ? Like that nova and arizona program. PA schools need to expand in terms of research, versatility, and offer more than a PA degree for universities and society. However we DO NOT NEED MORE PA programs in my opinion. I am confident we will hit saturation. And the last thing I want to see is a PA student spending 120k in loans (paid back at probably 300k over 15 years) for a DOCTORATE in PA who will graduate to earn 70k. If we were controlling the marker better the doctorate would make more sense. Audiologist is a good analogy here ... as is the JD degree. 

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-medical-school-graduates/

 

> 17,000 med school grads per year

 

 

currently I think there is 187 PA programs - average class size maybe 50?  ==== less then 10,000 PA per year

http://www.arc-pa.org/acc_programs/

 

Physician shortage of > 90,000

https://www.aamc.org/download/153160/data/physician_shortages_to_worsen_without_increases_in_residency_tr.pdf

 

 

Seems like we need MORE schools and bigger classes

 

 

 

 

As I keep saying, the initials after your name make a big difference!  If we have a clinical doctorate (Which we all deserve anyways - with out any additional schooling) our political activities will be much easier...

 

Medical Assistants don't need independent practice, but a DMS Physician Associate sure does.....