Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Here are the details... Ortho spine. Job is with a private practice ortho group (20 docs) about 45 minutes from major midwest city.

 

  • Base salary: $74,000
  • Health/Dental/Vision: Eligible after 90 days. High deductible plan ($3,300), paying about $35 out of pocket per pay (individual plan)
  • 401k & Profit Sharing: 1 year waiting period... Will match 100% up to 3%, and 50% match on the next 2%
  • Life Insurance: $20,000 term and accidental
  • CME: $1500 and 5 days
  • Vacation: 2 weeks plus 8-9 major holidays (no other personal sick days were included in info packet)
  • Malpractice with tail/Licensing/DEA: Covered by employer
  • Bonus: The specifics on paper are confusing, but during conversation the physician made a comment that it could be about $4000 extra a year (l was sort of expecting the "bonus" to make up for the low salary, so this was definitely a shock.)
  • They are willing to give me 2 chances to pass my certification exam and are also willing to employ me (if needed) during the 3 month period as an athletic trainer (I've been certified for 10 years) at a rate of $25 an hour... Obviously if I pass my test on the first try this wouldn't make a difference.

Odds and ends: Physician takes 10+ weeks of vacation a year and it was discussed that I would end up having a lot of that time off as well without having to use vacation days. I know that there will be a lot of 50-60 hour weeks because I did an elective rotation with this physician, but physician said those hours will equal out with the extra time off and days off here and there if we've been hitting it really hard.

 

The doc knows I have another offer at $84,000, but still came in 10g's lower. The other offer is sports medicine, but I've had several people to tell me to RUN in the other direction from that group. I was really just hoping to use the sports med offer as a negotiating tool. I'm supposed to just call the doc over the weekend if I have any questions or if I want to negotiate.

 

Any thoughts, suggestions, ways to approach a higher salary would be appreciated. I know the value in this position would be the good relationship I've had with the doc since my rotation, plus I know they're willing to train me... But I also know I can't work for pennies.

 

THANKS!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

aapa salary report with salary data and benefits data

 

every part of this offer is very poor

 

first question is rather you truly want to work somewhere that under values you so much......

 

 

ortho spine - is big $$$ for the doc's - from the looks of this offier they are either exceptonally greedy or totally don't get the roll of the PA

 

if you want to work there come up with what it would take to go there

 

100k salary

full health insurance for you and family with them covering any high ded or at least a HSA or FSA

4 weeks PTO and one week CME per year with $2500

They pay for all your license and med mal (with tail if you leave)

401K - well that is what it is

 

As a 10 yr AT entering sports med, ortho you come in above the average new grad pay

 

If you take this offer you have GOT TO GET IN WRITING that you will be off when the doc it off - as that simply will not happen - if it is not in writing it doesn't count

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your reply Ventana... I know I'm not in the "friendliest" PA state (NP's still rule the roost here), but I would expect to at least be in the range of the lowest 25th percentiles of the salary data and this offer is not. I do have access to the AAPA and PA Orthopedic Association salary data. The AAPA is a little lower than the PAOS, but even the lowest 25th percentile ranges ortho from 80-85k depending on which survey you look at.

 

A little more info...

 

  • I figured out the bonus: Ex: My total compensation package is $120k (with salary, insurance, 401k, taxes, cme, etc). I would make 10% of 120k-135k, 15% of 135-165k, and 20% thereafter. So 10% of 135k would equal a $1500 bonus.
    • My biggest question is how attainable are these numbers? I know very little about billing (surgery vs clinic) and I'm worried that I would lose out on a lot of potential since the surgeon takes so much vacation.
  • Do you think the 401k could be negotiated to start after 6 months instead of 1 year, or is that usually set in stone with the company?
  • Is short term disability something that companies usually offer?

I am meeting with HR tomorrow and I plan to ask a lot of questions and try to get things added/reworded in the offer letter. If you have ANY advice on how to negotiate the offer it would be greatly appreciated... I plan to present the PAOS salary data and I also found the MGMA 2012 salary info on here as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Thanks for your reply Ventana... I know I'm not in the "friendliest" PA state (NP's still rule the roost here), but I would expect to at least be in the range of the lowest 25th percentiles of the salary data and this offer is not. I do have access to the AAPA and PA Orthopedic Association salary data. The AAPA is a little lower than the PAOS, but even the lowest 25th percentile ranges ortho from 80-85k depending on which survey you look at.

 

A little more info...

 

  • I figured out the bonus: Ex: My total compensation package is $120k (with salary, insurance, 401k, taxes, cme, etc). I would make 10% of 120k-135k, 15% of 135-165k, and 20% thereafter. So 10% of 135k would equal a $1500 bonus.
    • My biggest question is how attainable are these numbers? I know very little about billing (surgery vs clinic) and I'm worried that I would lose out on a lot of potential since the surgeon takes so much vacation.
  • Do you think the 401k could be negotiated to start after 6 months instead of 1 year, or is that usually set in stone with the company?
  • Is short term disability something that companies usually offer?

I am meeting with HR tomorrow and I plan to ask a lot of questions and try to get things added/reworded in the offer letter. If you have ANY advice on how to negotiate the offer it would be greatly appreciated... I plan to present the PAOS salary data and I also found the MGMA 2012 salary info on here as well.

 

 

Never bring up total compensation - that is the way they are going to try to talk you down...... 

AAPA data is the salary data

 

no chance is 401(k) modifications - this is a plan issue that has no ability to change

 

no way you should take an offer below 25%   this is likely people not working full time......

 

show them the data and state that it needs to be at the 50%  - that means that there is still 50% of the new grads making more and as you are in a sub-specialty you should be on the high end

 

 

sometimes it just takes declining the offer straight up - don't counter just say it is to low.  In negotiation he who speaks first looses...... so simply decline with the reason that the salary is to low

 

short term disability is sometimes offered but not a big deal......

 

you want to pay long term with your own after tax monies so that if you ever need it all the payments are tax free

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would like to add in here that as a prior ATC with 10 years experience now as a new grad PA considering Ortho, you are quite the hot commodity and should ABSOLUTELY expect to make well above 50-75%. Furthermore, ortho just happens to be one of the higher paid specialties, partly also owing to the long hours generally associated with it. The only way I can see this offer being remotely agreeable is if you can get in writing that youll have the 10+ weeks of vacation on top of your slotted vacation/holiday time. Also I know that if I randomly had 2 months off, I probably wouldn't know what to do LOL but thats something certainly to consider.

 

Also, keep in mind that even though you may be in an NP-friendly state, Ortho will almost always be a PA-friendly specialty. So you have to take that into consideration when calculating your perceived demand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Would like to add in here that as a prior ATC with 10 years experience now as a new grad PA considering Ortho, you are quite the hot commodity and should ABSOLUTELY expect to make well above 50-75%. 

 

I would expect you to be at the 75% range for new grads......

It is a VERY different job of ATC to PAC ----- yes the MS system knowledge is exceptionally helpful, but a lot of the other "stuff" of being an ortho PA is unrelated.  

You have a highly valuable skill set with the ATC that does have some cross over, but it is not as helpful as you think - but the biggest advantage to an employer is that you have a proven dedication to field  (unless the orthopods are going to use you like an ATC with a script pad in which case you are more valuable)

 

You are not however worth more then a 5+ year experienced ortho PA so it is a difficult

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my negotiation meeting yesterday, I highlighted the 50-75th% range of the PAOS and AAPA salary data and essentially gave them a solid # at 90k. That's the exact 50th% of the PAOS and between the 50th-75th% of the AAPA for 0-2 or 0-4 years of experience. I'll be the first one to admit that reading spine xray/MRI's, assisting in surgery, rounding on patients, and ordering/interpreting lab tests is VERY different from being an ATC.

 

The odd thing is, they called me back after our mtg and asked if my other offer was paying for my taxes? I wasn't exactly sure what they were referring to (even though they had highlighted the $5k they'll be paying for my taxes in the total compensation package.) I've never had another job highlight taxes and after some research, I realized it's because employers HAVE to pay 6.2% of your SS tax and 1.45% of your medicare tax, plus unemployment taxes. Are they really trying to push the 5k in taxes as a benefit?!

 

I still think they are going to come back pushing their "total compensation package." I'm not sure why, because their benefits, vacation, cme, etc., are all mediocre. It's not like they're offering tuition reimbursement, gym membership, cell phone allowance, or other perks. In my negotiation I also asked for more CME $, more vacation, added sick days, and for licensing/dues/etc to be written into the contract line by line. I also told them I would like them to reword the "at will termination" to 30-60 days notice (which I would also give if I was planning to end my employment with them).

 

With your help and advice, I hard balled it to the best of my ability! It's actually got me fired up now because I realize they're trying distract me with all these other "not so flashy" numbers. I know I'm their only candidate and I would hope they come back with something reasonable (hopefully between 85-90k.) I can work with that for a year and then renegotiate my worth once I have some experience/ground to stand on. It's hard to come up with a bottom line # where I'm willing to walk away, but I guess we'll just have to see.

 

I'll post as soon as I hear their counter!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never heard of ANY employer bringing up their portion of payroll taxes as being part of the employee compensation package.  It's a tax deduction for them anyway.  Looking down the road, imagine how annual reviews will go for you.  I'd walk from this one if they're this difficult to deal with and you don't even work for them yet!  They ought to pay you an extra amount for the "hazard pay" of dealing with chronic back pain patients.  I can say this because I've been there, and it was my first position as well (dedicated spine).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

In my negotiation meeting yesterday, I highlighted the 50-75th% range of the PAOS and AAPA salary data and essentially gave them a solid # at 90k. That's the exact 50th% of the PAOS and between the 50th-75th% of the AAPA for 0-2 or 0-4 years of experience. I'll be the first one to admit that reading spine xray/MRI's, assisting in surgery, rounding on patients, and ordering/interpreting lab tests is VERY different from being an ATC.

 

The odd thing is, they called me back after our mtg and asked if my other offer was paying for my taxes? I wasn't exactly sure what they were referring to (even though they had highlighted the $5k they'll be paying for my taxes in the total compensation package.) I've never had another job highlight taxes and after some research, I realized it's because employers HAVE to pay 6.2% of your SS tax and 1.45% of your medicare tax, plus unemployment taxes. Are they really trying to push the 5k in taxes as a benefit?!

 

I still think they are going to come back pushing their "total compensation package." I'm not sure why, because their benefits, vacation, cme, etc., are all mediocre. It's not like they're offering tuition reimbursement, gym membership, cell phone allowance, or other perks. In my negotiation I also asked for more CME $, more vacation, added sick days, and for licensing/dues/etc to be written into the contract line by line. I also told them I would like them to reword the "at will termination" to 30-60 days notice (which I would also give if I was planning to end my employment with them).

 

With your help and advice, I hard balled it to the best of my ability! It's actually got me fired up now because I realize they're trying distract me with all these other "not so flashy" numbers. I know I'm their only candidate and I would hope they come back with something reasonable (hopefully between 85-90k.) I can work with that for a year and then renegotiate my worth once I have some experience/ground to stand on. It's hard to come up with a bottom line # where I'm willing to walk away, but I guess we'll just have to see.

 

I'll post as soon as I hear their counter!

 

I have had the employer contribution taxes included in total compensation when I go to a very small practice. They are more saying that is a cost to them and my employment which they have to account for. I have never heard it with a bigger employer. This is a huge red flag if they really are trying to make this sound like a benefit, it is impossible to have an employee without paying these taxes in their the employer's responsibility.

 

I would strongly caution against thinking you'll renegotiated a year or two, it is unlikely you will even get a review in a year or two unless you push hard for it. Stick firm on 90,000, that is a reasonable start, and benefits should be appropriate. You have great data to back it up, and if you know you are the only candidate is reasonable to say that is what you worth.

 

Of note, I have had more luck being a professional, stating what I'm worth, and sticking to it, instead of thinking it is a bargaining process that they can negotiate a lower salary. Basically the statement I am worth X dollars, if you want me to work for you this is my pay. Has a lot of validity. It also sets the future expectations of whether they can bully you into additional work, lack of reviews, no pay raises.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Physician Assistant Forum! This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. Learn More