Do Not Become a PA

[JohnnyM2]

The OP's original post strikes me as a very immature rant. Though some of what he says may well be true, I have done many different jobs in my life. Some, I really enjoyed; others not so much. I always made the most of every job and left if I wasn't satisfied. Some of those janitors mentioned by the OP would probably tell you they hate their jobs and would think the OP, with all his talent and education, is a whining Prima Donna.

 

I am not entirely discounting the OPs frustrations. I have been on this forum long enough to realize that there are some very valid frustrations experienced by many PAs. To that I would say, "join the club." Most jobs are full of frustrations and many of those frustrations have to do with respect and autonomy (and pay.) If you hate your job, do something about it. Grow up! After 17 years it's about time.

 

I encouraged my daughter to become a PA because my wife and I have had professional jobs for over 30 years and we are well aware of what career frustration is like. Nevertheless, she (and we) felt that she would do quite well in a PA career and she had NO interest in becoming an MD. PAs don't have a corner on the frustration complaint.

 

Personally, I hate NYC. Come to Texas. Ride houses. Shoot guns. Live on a small ranch. Trust me, if you can get over the NYC liberal snobbery, you will be very happy. We left the liberal snobbery of the silicon valley to move here. We have a gorgeous house on a 26,000 acre lake and seven boats in our boat house. We could never have had that in California.

 

Ok, go ahead, send your hate mail. We are quite happy. And, by the way, we still have frustrations.

 

Sent from my Kindle Fire HDX using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[kittryn]

 

To all and any who are considering the PA profession as their future career -

 

 

Choose a different career path.  I've been a PA for 17 years and I can count on one hand (ok maybe two) the number of days my job produced a level of satisfaction, enjoyment, or happiness.  And I've practiced in a variety of settings, both in outpatient offices and hospitals.  Only deployment overseas to Iraq as an Army Medical Officer gave me the great job satisfaction one would expect to get out of their work.  (Unfortunately it took me a half a world away from my family and cost me precious time with them.)  If you're considering a career as a PA, I advise you to consider the extra mile and go to medical school.  Yes it will be a longer path and a harder one, but it will end.  Once you finish PA school you will have the honor of joining the miserable, underpaid, overworked, disrespected, unappreciated, overlooked, unrecognized, unnoticed, always pushed around health care professionals on God's green earth.  We all like to think of ourselves as doing a lot (or most) of what doctors do.  And this is true!  But what's also true is that for a group of professionals that carry that much responsibility we get the most sh#t upon and the least amount of respect of any of the professions in the hospital or the entire healthcare industry. And we don't make anything near what a doctor makes.  Most of the hospital thinks of us as a joke and aren't even nice to us- even when they need us to do anything.  In New York we have no choice but to sell our souls to the doctors and hospitals.  Communism rules and capitalism is dead (meaning - we're not even allowed to choose our own future as an entrepreneur and open our own practice; even if we hire our own supervising physicians!)  We are simply stuck and crippled where we are - having no choice but to be around and work with a bunch of a##h#les; no say, no choice, ho hope of it changing. The job simply sucks!  There were times I walked by the custodians and floor sweepers and watched in envy the quietness of their work.  Nobody seems to bother them.  And we all appreciate a nice clean work environment.  I doubt they take their job home with them at night.  And I hate to say it but, despite the headlines of a "growing PA profession" and it being called one of the hottest jobs of the future, the actual job absolutely sucks.  Don't be fooled!  If you decide to go to PA school and become a PA you'll find out just what I'm talking about.  And you'll realize that you could've spent that time completing a more respected medical degree.  If I could go back in time, I would actually choose a totally different career path; probably as far away from the healthcare field as possible!  But if it was in healthcare, it would be the path of a doctor.

 

Again, if you're thinking of PA school... 

Take my advice...   ...go to medical school.

 

 

 

I totally agree. I have been a PA for 8 years and I hate it. I have yet to find that "good fit" they talked about. I have worked primarily in surgery, so that can be part of it because it is the most dickish place on earth. the last 4 out of 5 jobs I've had I've been fired from because I just couldn't take the shit anymore and started speaking up over just basic things, like being paid the OT I was contracted for, or politely telling my service that it is time for me to go home. well, that equals nothing but, "don't let the door hit you in the ass".

 

the worst part is the shaming culture of medicine (surgery) - we work on salary, always work longer than our contracted hours, and are looked at as shitty workers if we expect to be paid for the extra hours we put in. and we're talking like ~$50-60 an hour...nothing to an SP but hey, for me? it's groceries, man.

 

if you want to go home when you "should", based on your contract (9-5, whatever, 7-3, 7-5, even part-time), you are seen as a bad worker. having a life of your own and time for hobbies, friends...well, forget that - how about time just to RELAX from the over-compressed coil into which your workday turns you each and every day? how about the basic human need to feel that you have control over your time and will be treated fairly if someone needs you to stay "a little late" and you do, but most times you just need (or want!) to go home??? why are we punished for that?

 

we are treated like crap, like permanent residents. your day is never finished, you can never leave until (someone, a surgeon, a practice manager, a bully of a nurse) imperiously say, "why are you still here? go home, hahaah (I'm so wonderful and generous), go home!".

 

I will NEVER take an advertised "M-F, 40 hour/week" job. it is automatically 60 hrs/week, and I won't be paid for the extra time. I will come home for the weekend a shattered mess, with a too-short weekend in which to try to recuperate, and then dread monday morning (5:30 anyone, to pre-round with the dick residents. bc they said so?).

 

I also always ask in an interview who there is to sign out to at the end of my scheduled "shift". if they so no one, or, well, there's a dr. on call. I know that I will never be allowed to leave the hospital when my shift is up. because God forbid I bother the dr on call. even if I do, he or she will just tell me to take care of it, being utterly clueless to the fact that it's time for me to go home. if I politely mention that, some complaint about my "poor work ethic" will circulate and eventually come back to bite me in the ass. never fails. it's a lose-lose dynamic.

 

I tried a 7-on/7-off schedule, 12 hour days (bc there are ONLY 12 hour days in surgery, and I might as well get paid for it) - so that's 84 hrs a week, every other week - thinking the week off would give me time for my real life and some fun, relaxation, etc. it did. it was great. at first. but the honeymoon ended (as always) and personalities and egos and jealousies (that I get to go home for a week every other week?) turned into meanness, power plays, rumors, complaints over the dumbest shit, finger-pointing, blame, accusations and other random bullshit, and guess what? when I refused to be bullied by a moonlighter trying to pass off his consults to me, he started a chain of events that...guess what? got me fired. YUP.

 

I am done with surgery. looking into part-time or 3-12s type shifts in some medicine-based specialty. and that's only bc I have to pay my bills. if I could do it over, I would take my money (and heart and soul and blood, sweat, and tears and dignity and self-respect and mental/emotional/physical health) back. hands down.

 

thanks for the vent! I'm job hunting again, but I'm even afraid to accept a job offer bc I think the same thing will happen - I'll start a job with positivity and enthusiasm and great work ethic, and then get thrown out with the trash when I expect to also be treated with basic respect and dignity and fairness. I just don't know how to do this. 

[kittryn]

What's your definition of "scut"?

  

rounding with the resident team, writing AAAALLLLLLL the orders and progress notes while residents go to OR with attendings. write ALLLLLLLL the DC summaries, prescriptions....

 

I ALWAYS ask to take the consult pager bc it gets me out of that pressure-cooker, computer-gazing hell....ugh

[kittryn]

Doctors are inherently arrogant because they are disconnected from the marketplace. The OPs references to communism might be extreme but his larger point is that doctors enjoy protected markets by state regulatory bodies. The protection produces arrogance. The arrogance leads to bullying and disrespect. I see doctors as predators in search of persons they can exploit or harm. When I work with docs, I am polite. If I am in the break room, I might exchange pleasantries. They are not friends. I won't take any crap from any doc. Having a protracted battle is emotionally draining but learning to do it in a professional manner and winning in the end will stop the predators from approaching. I just approach my job as a PA and remember I am doctoring. I know it. My patients know it. The doctors in the clinic and hospital feel threatened by it so they need to try to marginalize. The longer I practice, the less effective the doctors are at diminishing my role and influence. They will always get three times the income. I can live with that. They don't get the right to treat me disrespectfully. 

 

AMEN. but I haven't had the heady (I imagine) experience of refusing to be treated with disrespect and not getting fired

[Adomke]

I know this thread it old but I came about it. As somebody who is considering being a PA this is discouraging. I also cannot believe that this OP is complaining about compensation. I am a teacher and my take home, per year, is $24,000 on top of having 55K student loans and working from 730 am-4 pm everyday, and that doesn't include the time I have to grade/plan/assess etc. at home in my own time. Even if I have 110K in loans but made 100K a year I'd be WAY better off than I am now! 

[Maverick87]

I totally agree. I have been a PA for 8 years and I hate it. I have yet to find that "good fit" they talked about. I have worked primarily in surgery, so that can be part of it because it is the most dickish place on earth. the last 4 out of 5 jobs I've had I've been fired from because I just couldn't take the shit anymore and started speaking up over just basic things, like being paid the OT I was contracted for, or politely telling my service that it is time for me to go home. well, that equals nothing but, "don't let the door hit you in the ass".

 

the worst part is the shaming culture of medicine (surgery) - we work on salary, always work longer than our contracted hours, and are looked at as shitty workers if we expect to be paid for the extra hours we put in. and we're talking like ~$50-60 an hour...nothing to an SP but hey, for me? it's groceries, man.

 

if you want to go home when you "should", based on your contract (9-5, whatever, 7-3, 7-5, even part-time), you are seen as a bad worker. having a life of your own and time for hobbies, friends...well, forget that - how about time just to RELAX from the over-compressed coil into which your workday turns you each and every day? how about the basic human need to feel that you have control over your time and will be treated fairly if someone needs you to stay "a little late" and you do, but most times you just need (or want!) to go home??? why are we punished for that?

 

we are treated like crap, like permanent residents. your day is never finished, you can never leave until (someone, a surgeon, a practice manager, a bully of a nurse) imperiously say, "why are you still here? go home, hahaah (I'm so wonderful and generous), go home!".

 

I will NEVER take an advertised "M-F, 40 hour/week" job. it is automatically 60 hrs/week, and I won't be paid for the extra time. I will come home for the weekend a shattered mess, with a too-short weekend in which to try to recuperate, and then dread monday morning (5:30 anyone, to pre-round with the dick residents. bc they said so?).

 

I also always ask in an interview who there is to sign out to at the end of my scheduled "shift". if they so no one, or, well, there's a dr. on call. I know that I will never be allowed to leave the hospital when my shift is up. because God forbid I bother the dr on call. even if I do, he or she will just tell me to take care of it, being utterly clueless to the fact that it's time for me to go home. if I politely mention that, some complaint about my "poor work ethic" will circulate and eventually come back to bite me in the ass. never fails. it's a lose-lose dynamic.

 

I tried a 7-on/7-off schedule, 12 hour days (bc there are ONLY 12 hour days in surgery, and I might as well get paid for it) - so that's 84 hrs a week, every other week - thinking the week off would give me time for my real life and some fun, relaxation, etc. it did. it was great. at first. but the honeymoon ended (as always) and personalities and egos and jealousies (that I get to go home for a week every other week?) turned into meanness, power plays, rumors, complaints over the dumbest shit, finger-pointing, blame, accusations and other random bullshit, and guess what? when I refused to be bullied by a moonlighter trying to pass off his consults to me, he started a chain of events that...guess what? got me fired. YUP.

 

I am done with surgery. looking into part-time or 3-12s type shifts in some medicine-based specialty. and that's only bc I have to pay my bills. if I could do it over, I would take my money (and heart and soul and blood, sweat, and tears and dignity and self-respect and mental/emotional/physical health) back. hands down.

 

thanks for the vent! I'm job hunting again, but I'm even afraid to accept a job offer bc I think the same thing will happen - I'll start a job with positivity and enthusiasm and great work ethic, and then get thrown out with the trash when I expect to also be treated with basic respect and dignity and fairness. I just don't know how to do this. 

Maybe you should get out of surgery.

 

My job right now definitely has its flaws, but it's definitely not so bad that I regret going into this field....

[KMD16]

^ Agreed. Kittryn. You should look into doing UC & or outpatient clinics. Would strongly recommend UC, s/where rural or fast tract ED. Very good Lifestyle.

[BruceBanner]

Agree with the others, get out of surgery. It's not for everyone. 

 

I had to learn that the hard way, and I'd sooner start mowing lawns for a living than go back to surgery. Not to say outpatient medicine is all roses and rainbows, but all in all you live a pretty normal working life.

[Boatswain2PA]

I know this thread it old but I came about it. As somebody who is considering being a PA this is discouraging. I also cannot believe that this OP is complaining about compensation. I am a teacher and my take home, per year, is $24,000 on top of having 55K student loans and working from 730 am-4 pm everyday, and that doesn't include the time I have to grade/plan/assess etc. at home in my own time. Even if I have 110K in loans but made 100K a year I'd be WAY better off than I am now! 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's add more to this equation.  If you make $24K, married with kids, you likely pay no taxes, yet you get another $6K in tax credits which are refunded every year, so you have about $30K/yr spendable.

 

OP says he makes $100K/year.  He pays a lot of taxes (especially in NY), could be up to 30-40% total, bringing his spendable income down to $60-70K.

 

Yes, medicine pays better than primary education. 

[gbrothers98]

I know this thread it old but I came about it. As somebody who is considering being a PA this is discouraging. I also cannot believe that this OP is complaining about compensation. I am a teacher and my take home, per year, is $24,000 on top of having 55K student loans and working from 730 am-4 pm everyday, and that doesn't include the time I have to grade/plan/assess etc. at home in my own time. Even if I have 110K in loans but made 100K a year I'd be WAY better off than I am now! 

Put this thread in perspective. It is the internet. One table thumper can get a lot of attention, throw in some more and the sky is falling.

I dont know whom the OP is but within their rant there are valid points.

Poor compensation in comparison to services performed, poor respect, poor working conditions. Those all can happen to a PA. They can also happen within any occupation.

As you point out everything is relative. I know my life is much better as a PA than it was as an enlisted medic. 

Also have to put in perspective one's life. If you are married, kids in school, mortgage, then having the flexibility to upend your career and make a move for the better can be significantly curtailed. Then you are trapped. Frustration becomes anger focused on what you have control over. Retrospectively it seems you made a poor decision. But what other decision were you going to make? Continue doing what you were doing? Choose something completely different? 

This also is not a career that you can just decide to do. Good grades, health care experience, shadowing, interviews, etc. All of that took specific focus and work, it didnt just happen on a whim.

There is also expectation vs reality. I see this with PA students all the time. There is an expectation of perfection vs the reality that life is not well manicured. Some individuals can adjust to this, others dont when the balloon is busted. Then there are different areas of medicine that can cause some PAs to be very disillusioned due to the dynamics within those specialties.

Plus there are people who are miserable and who want other people to be miserable. They love to suck others into their vortex of negativity. Not saying the OP is that person. But his experience could be reflective of being surrounded by assholes for over a decade. That will wear you down.

Good luck

G Brothers PA-C

[andersenpa]

I am a pa in surgery in nyc, I make over 3 figures

How did anyone miss this?

Report this to the AAPA survey!

What is this, $1100, $1200/yr? Sweet!

[Joelseff]

How did anyone miss this?

Report this to the AAPA survey!

What is this, $1100, $1200/yr? Sweet!

Lol that's 4 digits!

[sharesmiles]

PA Profession is like a marriage, some in it may wanted to get out if they had a rough one. If they are happy, they're proud about it. But everyone else outside wanted to get in.

[Joelseff]

PA Profession is like a marriage, some in it may wanted to get out if they had a rough one. If they are happy, they're proud about it. But everyone else outside wanted to get in.

Umm what!?? Lol

[Adomke]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's add more to this equation.  If you make $24K, married with kids, you likely pay no taxes, yet you get another $6K in tax credits which are refunded every year, so you have about $30K/yr spendable.

 

OP says he makes $100K/year.  He pays a lot of taxes (especially in NY), could be up to 30-40% total, bringing his spendable income down to $60-70K.

 

Yes, medicine pays better than primary education. 

I said that is my take home after taxes. My salary is more about 37000 and I get back about 1000 dollars in taxes right now. 

[Boatswain2PA]

I know this thread it old but I came about it. As somebody who is considering being a PA this is discouraging. I also cannot believe that this OP is complaining about compensation. I am a teacher and my take home, per year, is $24,000 on top of having 55K student loans and working from 730 am-4 pm everyday, and that doesn't include the time I have to grade/plan/assess etc. at home in my own time. Even if I have 110K in loans but made 100K a year I'd be WAY better off than I am now! 

 

 

I said that is my take home after taxes. My salary is more about 37000 and I get back about 1000 dollars in taxes right now. 

So you gross $37,000, but only bring home $25,000 ($24K + $1K tax return)??  You're paying 32% in taxes??  You gottta get a better accountant, or move to a MUCH better state. 

 

Looking at the Turbotax website for the 2013 tax year (https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/), a person making $37K should only pay $3578 in FICA, bringing your income down to $33,400.  Subtract another 6.2% ($2294) for Social Security and 1.45% ($536) for Medicare, and you should bring home about $30,500 (not including state income taxes)....and that is if you DON'T have wife and kids, EITC, or Child Tax Credit. 

 

So, not including state income tax, a single teacher with no kids grossing $37K should net $30,500.  With wife and/or kids, they would qualify for the EITC (between $3250 and $6044) and the Child Tax Credit which would be an extra $1,000 in credit per child.  If they are married and have two kids, I think their effective federal tax would be somewhere near ZERO, allowing them to keep their entire $37K in income.

 

Meanwhile, using the same web-site I used to run the numbers above, a PA grossing $100K will pay $18,341 in FICA, $6200 in Social Security, and $1450 in Medicare, bringing net pay down to $74,000 (again, before state income taxes).  With a net pay of $74,000, even if they are married with three kids, they may exceed the EITC and Child Tax Credit. 

 

 

[taotaox1]

The real question is why is this thread still lingering 1 year on......

 

It certainly has not added anything of value to this forum.

[jen0508]

I love my job as a PA. Great pay. As much automony as I want. The most I stay after shift ends is 30min. Sounds like moral of the story is... go into the right specialty.....look for the right job and don't settle ;)

[treejay]

I know this thread it old but I came about it. As somebody who is considering being a PA this is discouraging. I also cannot believe that this OP is complaining about compensation. I am a teacher and my take home, per year, is $24,000 on top of having 55K student loans and working from 730 am-4 pm everyday, and that doesn't include the time I have to grade/plan/assess etc. at home in my own time. Even if I have 110K in loans but made 100K a year I'd be WAY better off than I am now! 

Do teachers really get paid this little?  Where and what are you teaching?  And how much vacation time does that come with?

[EMEDPA]

Do teachers really get paid this little?  Where and what are you teaching?  And how much vacation time does that come with?

yup they do. a good friend of mine taught high school in inner city L.A. for a few years and made< 30k/yr with a masters degree before taxes. she had a box by the door for students to leave their cell phones and knives in. no, I'm not kidding. teachers make crap in public schools and it shouldn't be that way. trash collectors make more. she left teaching, went back to school, and became an accountant.

[Boatswain2PA]

According to Salary.com, median school teacher pay in LA is $57K.  while PAs median there is $103K.

[cinntsp]

yup they do. a good friend of mine taught high school in inner city L.A. for a few years and made< 30k/yr with a masters degree before taxes. she had a box by the door for students to leave their cell phones and knives in. no, I'm not kidding. teachers make crap in public schools and it shouldn't be that way. trash collectors make more. she left teaching, went back to school, and became an accountant.

 

...and people wonder why our education system sucks.  Low pay and tenure are major issues.

[EMEDPA]

According to Salary.com, median school teacher pay in LA is $57K.  while PAs median there is $103K.

it was a few years ago....

[Boatswain2PA]

And that's median pay, not starting pay. I personally dont think teachers make terrible money in most places. Some places (including some of the worst performing places, like Chicago) they make very good money.

 

Watch the movie "Waiting for Superman" for a good understanding of what is wrong with our education system.

[trout]

I'm active duty military and it's true, we have it pretty easy here.  I make decent money (with bonuses and benefits).  I leave on time most days and rarely get called in after hours. My patient population is generally healthy friendly and motivated, so unless I'm deployed it's all fairly low stress.  But I agree with the OP- I wish I went to med school.  I work with a DO and a Carribean trained doc but they are doctors and I will always be a PA. 

 

I went to PA school because I was 30 and didn't want to spend 8 years in training.  Now here I am 10 years later and I could've been done by now, making twice what I make now (even if I was in the military) with no restrictions on my future.  Imagine never having to explain to the guy next to me on the plane what it is I do.  Never have a specialist second guess my opinion because I'm a PA.  Life as a doctor is just plain better.

 

Yeah, I've heard the one about doctors who wish they'd gone to PA school - everyone's heard a version of that.  I'd like to switch positions with that dermatologist for a month and see if they like my life and my paycheck.  I betcha they wouldn't choose to stay in my shoes.