Misconception about a PA Doctorate

[G. Davenport]

Hi all

 

I read a lot of posts about the PA doctorate. Many against and many for. I think this topic needs to be put into perspective.

 

Most PA programs are over 110 SH of graduate coursework which is equivalent to four years of college. A standard master's degree is about 30 to 36 SH of course work.

 

Bottom line, call it what you want -- a PA education already meets the requirements for an applied doctorate. We just chose to award a degree below the work done.

[EMEDPA]

agree- when I attended PA school I already had a BS level degree. I completed something like 120 units of coursework to complete the program. I got a 2nd BS.

If I was interested in law I could have gotten a JD (Juris doctorate) or several other doctorate level degrees for 120 credits of work post bs. by the time I am done with my doctorate I will have well over 400 hrs of college level coursework with 2 BS degrees, an MS, 3 postmasters graduate certificates, and a DHSc. in addition to lots of other courses taken as prereqs(stats, genetics, physics, etc) which themselves did not grant a degree.

[rpackelly]

I was thinking about this the other day.  I completed  first my BA at SUNYBinghamton, then did about a year of pre-req undergrad work plus five years of hands on to get into the PA Program at Stanford/Foothill.   After that I did a two year masters at UC Davis and then an Ed.D that took me four years, plus about a year of for credit courses in other subjects just to be “well-rounded".    So nine years post BA of education credits at the very least, likely closer to ten.  I must say, that my PA studies were the hardest and most intense and at that time, it was for a certificate program.   

[Guest Paula]

Is it worth it to get a doctorate?  I have two BS degrees...first one in nutrition, second as a PA, and just finished a Masters PA studies.  If I would pursue a doctorate it would be one in health care administration for the sole purpose of assisting the PA profession to elevate itself up and out of dependence. 

 

Or would JD be better?

 

Actually I do not have the energy at this moment in time to seriously consider either as I am  glad to be done with the masters and am taking a break.

 

I'm focusing on being the best PA I can where I practice and to advocate for PAs in the two states I am licensed.  Plus Director at Large for PAFT.

 

The doctorate thought keeps coming back to haunt me.  I'm convincing myself I'm too old and poor to spend money on one......

[ventana]

our whole profession needs to go to a doctorate level.

 

makes no sense to be giving orders to a doctor to physical therapy, doctorate of occupational therapy, doctorate of nursing,or any one of the many other doctorate degrees.  The horse has already left the gate, the education programs need to step up and change this.

 

when does Nebraska come out with a Masters to doctorate program?

[EMEDPA]

funny you mention nebraska- when I was looking at doctorate programs I spoke with them specifically. their answer- they have no plans to offer a doctorate level program of any kind.

I looked at DrPH(public health), ND(naturopath), EdD(education), DHEd (health education), and DHSc (health science). the DHSc curriculum had the most of what I was interested in and very little that I wasn't. the ability to choose a global health focus was important to me. Having a doctorate allows a PA to have credentials that are more respected overseas than they are here. As a PA, DHSc I will have the option of leading teams overseas(which include physicians as members) and being medical director of a hospital in Africa. not a lot of options for PAs like that domestically. Domestically it gives me the ability to teach at the full professor level and work at a high level in govt service(CDC, etc) at a high rate of pay(the govt pays based on highest degree).

V- my understanding is that there are several entry level Doctor of medical science (DMS) PA programs in the works and we should see the first any day now.

[Barrywertz]

The change will better the profession as a whole.  It will provide more opportunities to teach as well (most state programs require a PhD/doc level within 6 years of hire).  The argument becomes political quickly however.  AAPA even mentioned this to the MD's last year, we are not pursuing independent practice.  I'm sure this move politically to change the terminal degree will contradict the AAPA's motion even if we reinforce the concept of dependent practitioners to the physicians.  It's more than just the hours put in college, but more what does the terminal degree "mean?"  DNP's are seeking independence and it will mirror this concept.  Lots of information out there on this subject.

 

On a personal note, I agree with you knappy.  Medical school crammed into 27 months with 111 hours of credits, hard to look at the facts and discredit the work being done.  I would not be surprised if, as the career becomes more popular, that our status changes.  Lobby lobby lobby.

 

But I'm just a student...my working knowledge of this in practice is limited.

 

 PA4life.

 

Barry

[SocialMedicine]

schools will start with a doctorate program in PA the SECOND people are willing to start paying for it. It matters not if there is a need or function for the degree. American Universities will sell any piece of paper students are willing to pay for.

 

Make masters the terminal/mandatory degree for all PA's.

 

Encourage PA's to pursue doctoral degree in areas which will advance profession.

 

The doctor of health science seems to be a nice option for PAs although my knowledge is limited.

[EMEDPA]

yup, agree. it's all about what folks will pay for. a doctorate will not confer any more practice rights than any other level pa certification just like a dnp can not do more than an msn/fnp.

I think we will start to see some online bridge programs as well from bs or ms to DMS once the PA doctorate train gets rolling.

[ventana]

schools will start with a doctorate program in PA the SECOND people are willing to start paying for it. It matters not if there is a need or function for the degree. American Universities will sell any piece of paper students are willing to pay for.

 

Make masters the terminal/mandatory degree for all PA's.

 

Encourage PA's to pursue doctoral degree in areas which will advance profession.

 

The doctor of health science seems to be a nice option for PAs although my knowledge is limited.

 

 

In theory this is fine, in the day to day world of being in the trenches working beside nurse who are doctors and PT and OTs that are doctors, it all seems like we are being left behind....

 

I think the schools will be the ones the drag the PA degree to a doctorate level..... for the $$$ if nothing else....

[treejay]

schools will start with a doctorate program in PA the SECOND people are willing to start paying for it. It matters not if there is a need or function for the degree. American Universities will sell any piece of paper students are willing to pay for.

 

Make masters the terminal/mandatory degree for all PA's.

 

Encourage PA's to pursue doctoral degree in areas which will advance profession.

 

The doctor of health science seems to be a nice option for PAs although my knowledge is limited.

 

Hmm.   Do you not think there are already people who would be willing to pay for a PA doctorate?  I'd be willing to bet you couldn't beat them off with a stick if it were offered.  Not sure I agree with this.

[EMEDPA]

doctor in pa studies(DPA)? not interested.

doctor of medical science(DMS)? I'm sure this would generate interest.

[MedicinePower]

doctor in pa studies(DPA)? not interested.

doctor of medical science(DMS)? I'm sure this would generate interest.

I'd like it to be called "Doctor of Medical Practice" (DMP). Implied clinical acumen, not scientific acumen.

[EMEDPA]

I'd like it to be called "Doctor of Medical Practice" (DMP). Implied clinical acumen, not scientific acumen.

. my thought was many programs give an MMS today. also the word practice and the term DMP sounds a little too much like DNP for my taste...don't ever want to be mistaken for an np. they are nice folks and some are verycompetent but very different preparation than a PA.

[rev ronin]

Or just make a path from PA to MD.  Make it competency-based, not time-based, or count PA school as medical school toward the end result.  Because our masters degrees SHOULD be under MDs. I'd rather be second tier in the medical education model than top tier of our own little fiefdoms like the DNP.

[tunafish]

Or just make a path from PA to MD.  Make it competency-based, not time-based, or count PA school as medical school toward the end result.  Because our masters degrees SHOULD be under MDs. I'd rather be second tier in the medical education model than top tier of our own little fiefdoms like the DNP.

Maybe Penn State will start the way. The Pa program there is IN the college of medicine and not grad school with degrees awarded in the same ceremony apparently.

[True Anomaly]

Maybe Penn State will start the way. The Pa program there is IN the college of medicine and not grad school with degrees awarded in the same ceremony apparently.

 

This isn't that far-fetched; my PA program was also under the medical school at the university I was at, but a PA-to-DO bridge wasn't exactly open to discussion.

[treejay]

Or just make a path from PA to MD.  Make it competency-based, not time-based, or count PA school as medical school toward the end result.  Because our masters degrees SHOULD be under MDs. I'd rather be second tier in the medical education model than top tier of our own little fiefdoms like the DNP.

 

But would then they newly minted MDs whom were prior PAs be required to then move on to residency?  Almost certainly yes.  Agreed there should be a path from PA-> MD/DO without starting from square 1.  This seems like a no brainer since it's the same training, just less (particularly in basic sciences). 

 

but the question is should that be the only path for a PA to earn a clinical doctorate?  Should there be another path that still keeps them a PA, but is awarded a doctorate degree?  A terminal PA degree?  Nobody disagrees with creating bridge programs... But should there be a higher terminal PA degree is the question.

[AREID]

But would then they newly minted MDs whom were prior PAs be required to then move on to residency? Almost certainly yes. Agreed there should be a path from PA-> MD/DO without starting from square 1. This seems like a no brainer since it's the same training, just less (particularly in basic sciences).

 

but the question is should that be the only path for a PA to earn a clinical doctorate? Should there be another path that still keeps them a PA, but is awarded a doctorate degree? A terminal PA degree? Nobody disagrees with creating bridge programs... But should there be a higher terminal PA degree is the question.

The terminal degree should be MD/DO. That is THE doctorate In medicine. We practice medicine like a physician would. It's silly to award anything else.

 

 

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[AREID]

By awarding anything else, that would imply that we somehow do something differently or are trained differently. Nurses can have the DNP since they practice "nursing". DPT can have their own since they do physical therapy. Chiropractors do their own practice. PAs practice medicine. The only thing that makes sense for a PA in regards to degree advancement is a path to MD/DO.

 

 

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[EMEDPA]

maybe pa to md/do "completion programs". didactic online while working your regular job over a few years, pass step 1 usmle, then  1 yr of clinicals full time gets you the md/do then you apply for the match....the didactic year(S) would basically be MS1 online as we already do most of ms2/3.

[rev ronin]

You need one year of residency beyond the MD/DO for a GP medical license, which doesn't get you much these days.  But if a PA can work in a multi-provider specialty under an MD/DO, why couldn't a GP work under a board-certified FM doc.  If it takes ~3-4 years of reasonable-and-sane hours (< 60/week) to make up the equivalent of PGY2 and PGY3 in a family medicine working environment, that would be just fine with me, too.  The key would be building upon existing PA knowledge, competence, and life experience without going back to square one anywhere.

 

There was an O-4 doing a PGY2 year at Madigan during my last rotation there. She was the oldest resident by a good bit, but also had years as a general medical officer.  When I was in Costa Rica, there were lots of GPs who were working while applying for the sparse residency slots.  Once you expand your mind a bit beyond how the US/Canadian private sector medical school model is set up, there are plenty of opportunities to create less intense and immediate paths to create board-certified physicians.

[EMEDPA]

if I become a physician I would do the full meal deal residency. no way I am working under someone else as a physician. that would defeat the point of going back to school. if I could enter a 3 yr physician residency right now and come out as an independent provider without medschool I would be all over that.

a few states will license you after an internship. most will after 2 yrs.

most insurance plans and hospitals want to see 3 yrs.

[Gordon, PA-C]

  Medical school crammed into 27 months with 111 hours of credits, hard to look at the facts and discredit the work being done. 

 

 

Agree.... PA school is a lot harder than med school because unlike the lazy med students we have to put in 10 hour work days in school while the lazy med students go home at noon to "study" for their tests.  We cover more material than the med students do, in a shorter period of time.  

[rev ronin]

We cover more material than the med students do, in a shorter period of time.  

Um, shorter time, yes... but MORE material?  I don't think so.