PA's and NP's, living in harmony?

[Noreaster]

themadmedic, why do you feel my hesitation (not generalization) that NPs may not be as quick to jump on the band wagon with this kind of forum is inaccurate?

[themadmedic]

Because it is just that-a generalization.

There are NPs that feel just as we do, that whatever is good for midlevel providers as a group will benefit them. Those that see PAs and NPs as peers, not enemies.

Are there NPs that would be hesitant, or even infuriated at the thought of this-you bet...just as there are PAs that would be the same...but neither group would necessarily reflect the professions as a whole.

I was actually playing devil's advocate there...but do feel we potentially have more to gain from such a situation than they...

[MrBob]

Let me get serious , since I threw a bit of dark humor into the subject/topic. I am RELIEVED tha such an organization has been founded and we ALL should join. EVERY ONE OF US. This is a serious move, folks, trust me. We are FINALLY banding together to be a united voice against those who would use us and not reimburse us or give us the respect due. Ask any of my collegues who have been PA's any length of time and they will surely agree. It is way beyond time for us to put our forces together to UNDERSTAND each other and RESPECT eachother.
We NEED this unity. WE NEED their political action groups and their organizations to stand with us to better ourselves. the NP's have way better odds when it comes to independance, government action in their favor than we do......we need them and they need us. JOIN......I gonna!

[eupatobe]

Here is the original posting where I found this info. It was posted on a PA listserve:

Dear Friend:



I'm writing to ask a favor. The favor is that you join the new American College of Clinicians and get all of your colleagues who want both NPs and PAs to advance and evolve to do so. I wanted to have the association up and running before I sent this letter and it is now.

We need your help and support to make this work. I know we can change things. We can get some things done working together that won't get done working apart. We will work in professional and public education; educating physicians, insurance companies, pharmacists and others as to what PAs and
NPs do and how they can work with us. We will get us recognized by boards like the ATLS that do not recognize us. We will try to tackle the problems of not being fully recognized by the pharmaceutical industry.

We will send free and affordable CME to our members, and most importantly be responsive to their needs and wants. There are 29 PA and NP leaders who are associate
with this new College who are wonderful and experienced.

We are getting people to join but I thought I'd ask a special favor from people I know. If
you want to be involved or need to speak to me with a question, please email
me.

Please join. Let us show you what we can do. www.amcollege.org

Dave

-

[pwauburn]

Sounds like a great idea as long as the additional power, via numbers, doesn't cause us to feel like we are too big for our britches.

PA's and NP's should definately learn to get along. Both professions are qualified to do their respective jobs.

[Vandy]

Sounds like a great idea as long as the additional power, via numbers, doesn't cause us to feel like we are too big for our britches.

PA's and NP's should definately learn to get along. Both professions are qualified to do their respective jobs.

I brought all this up to a NP and she exploded. She actually said, "NP's AREN'T MIDLEVELS, WE'RE NOT "MID" ANYTHING! WE ARE A COMPLETELY SEPARATE ENTITY!" Whatever that means...

[weldon7]

Hmm... I feel bad also putting in a negative opinion when there's a lot of optimism in the post, but I also wonder about the level of NP involvement/acceptance for this organization.

I have a good friend who is in her first year of NP school, and she has a very dim view of PAs. I'm pre-PA/pre-MD, and she actually discouraged me from going to PA school because she feels it produces inadequate providers. She said this about 10 minutes after talking about her ungodly 500 hrs. of clinical rotations she's going to have to do for her program. Now, I recognize that this could easily start a flame war, I promise I'm not trolling or anything. I just get a really strong sense that NPs will not be enthusiastic (or even willing) to be associated with PAs. Just my 2 cents.

[EMEDPA]

500 hrs, huh?
I had 500 hrs of clinicals...oh wait, that was just in trauma surgery, one of 8 rotations.....

[chatcat]

Hmm... I feel bad also putting in a negative opinion when there's a lot of optimism in the post, but I also wonder about the level of NP involvement/acceptance for this organization.

I have a good friend who is in her first year of NP school, and she has a very dim view of PAs. I'm pre-PA/pre-MD, and she actually discouraged me from going to PA school because she feels it produces inadequate providers. She said this about 10 minutes after talking about her ungodly 500 hrs. of clinical rotations she's going to have to do for her program. Now, I recognize that this could easily start a flame war, I promise I'm not trolling or anything. I just get a really strong sense that NPs will not be enthusiastic (or even willing) to be associated with PAs. Just my 2 cents.

I haven't had any problems with PA versus NP in NC although the state is very pro PA. We do have very different depths of training and most NPs I have worked with find this out pretty quickly in the clinical setting. It's not unusual for NPs to be very misinformed about our training...understandable as they haven't had to apply to PA school.

[coloradopa]

I haven't had any problems with PA versus NP in NC although the state is very pro PA. We do have very different depths of training and most NPs I have worked with find this out pretty quickly in the clinical setting. It's not unusual for NPs to be very misinformed about our training...understandable as they haven't had to apply to PA school.

In some cases I think the misinformation is deliberate. I hear the same pattern of misinformation. It really depends on the environment and how many PAs work there.

The one that really doesn't bother me anymore is the new RNs that are convinced (because there nursing instructors told them so) that orders from PAs are not legal. I usually say something like "what does your state nurse practice act say about that". It fortunately is a rare occurance now.

David Carpenter, PA-C

[EMEDPA]

In some cases I think the misinformation is deliberate. I hear the same pattern of misinformation. It really depends on the environment and how many PAs work there.

The one that really doesn't bother me anymore is the new RNs that are convinced (because there nursing instructors told them so) that orders from PAs are not legal. I usually say something like "what does your state nurse practice act say about that". It fortunately is a rare occurance now.

David Carpenter, PA-C

5 yrs ago I worked at a facility where the nurses refused orders from pa's not because of the law(which said no problem) but because they felt "uncomfortable with taking orders from pa's". hospital admin(nurses) backed them up. we all quit. low and behold a few months later these same nurses all finished np porgrams and were hired right out of school to replace a group of 5 pa's with collective experience of over 80 yrs in em....the docs were powerless to intervene as they were an independent group. they prefered( and still do prefer) pa's but they got stuck with np's. I work with the same group of docs at another facility now and they are still trying to amend the hospital bylaws to REQUIRE that nurses take pa orders so they can dump the np's and hire us back.....

[Joelseff]

5 yrs ago I worked at a facility where the nurses refused orders from pa's not because of the law(which said no problem) but because they felt "uncomfortable with taking orders from pa's". hospital admin(nurses) backed them up. we all quit. low and behold a few months later these same nurses all finished np porgrams and were hired right out of school to replace a group of 5 pa's with collective experience of over 80 yrs in em....the docs were powerless to intervene as they were an independent group. they prefered( and still do prefer) pa's but they got stuck with np's. I work with the same group of docs at another facility now and they are still trying to amend the hospital bylaws to REQUIRE that nurses take pa orders so they can dump the np's and hire us back.....

Has this specific Hospital not embraced the law? That really burns.

I was speaking to a friend who is an MS-N and I told her I was pursuing PA school. In front of some other friends, she told me that I should just go to NP school and get it all done. I informed her that the school I am applying to is a PA/NP or at least once a PA/NP school and that we would be in the same classes. Someone asked what a "Physician'S Assistant" was and I told her that if you looked at it, NP's and PA's fill the same practical roles but the backgrounds differ. My nurse friend jumped in and said that they aren't the same and I asked her to elaborate. She said that Np's work in OR now. I said so do PA's, that in fact PA's work in ALL specialties. She was SHOCKED!!! Here is a nurse who has been working at a metropolitan hospital in the Bay Area, California for 15+ years who had never really understood what a PA is. I mention this story b/c it is the most recent. I often get the same response from other nurse friends.

Although the professions are only a few years apart in age, the Nursing Lobby has had more impact on their people and the public than the PA lobby. I think that many people (lay people and medical people) still view the PA profession as a glorified MA even below an RN.

[coloradopa]

Has this specific Hospital not embraced the law? That really burns.

I was speaking to a friend who is an MS-N and I told her I was pursuing PA school. In front of some other friends, she told me that I should just go to NP school and get it all done. I informed her that the school I am applying to is a PA/NP or at least once a PA/NP school and that we would be in the same classes. Someone asked what a "Physician'S Assistant" was and I told her that if you looked at it, NP's and PA's fill the same practical roles but the backgrounds differ. My nurse friend jumped in and said that they aren't the same and I asked her to elaborate. She said that Np's work in OR now. I said so do PA's, that in fact PA's work in ALL specialties. She was SHOCKED!!! Here is a nurse who has been working at a metropolitan hospital in the Bay Area, California for 15+ years who had never really understood what a PA is. I mention this story b/c it is the most recent. I often get the same response from other nurse friends.

Although the professions are only a few years apart in age, the Nursing Lobby has had more impact on their people and the public than the PA lobby. I think that many people (lay people and medical people) still view the PA profession as a glorified MA even below an RN.

Let me guess UCSF?

David Carpenter, PA-C

[Contrarian]

Let me guess UCSF?

David Carpenter, PA-C

Its funny you say that because...

When I was doing my Inpatient rotation... there were several (4) RNs that I encountered that had NO CLue of what a PA is/does, but they were ALL UCSF MSN/NP grads. (note- they were ALL working as "floor" nurses NOT as NPs!!!)


Contrarian

[coloradopa]

Its funny you say that because...

When I was doing my Inpatient rotation... there were several (4) RNs that I encountered that had NO CLue of what a PA is/does, but they were ALL UCSF MSN/NP grads. (note- they were ALL working as "floor" nurses NOT as NPs!!!)


Contrarian

UCSF is rapidly surpassing Vande as the most anti-PA hospital. The problem is that there are no NP jobs but tons of NPs coming out. They also have the MEPN program that is cranking out tons of masters nurses with no nursing experience all looking for places to work. This is amplified by the fact that RN salaries in SF are way above anything that private practice is able to pay. The only way they can get new positions is to get PAs out. Not a good situation.

David Carpenter, PA-C