caveat emptor

Hey all...... so I am a recent graduate of the program class of 2011 and I must tell you to be aware of what you are getting into with Chatham. The two years of the program there were many, and I really do mean many, points in the program where faculty unnecessarily put their students through the ringer. If you really look at the statistics of this program, you will find out that every year the program loses a substantial amount of their admitted class! Our class of 2011 lost 11% of our admitted class and 6% were decelerated (meaning they were allowed to return to class of 2012); additionally out of those 6 individuals that were decelerated, 2 of them are left!! The other four individuals were literally harassed and pushed by the faculty themselves to the point that they all withdrew from the program. It is with strong belief that I state this institution cares about their PANCE passing rate and the image of the institution more than actually teaching their students. For example; class of 2011, 14 people out of our 60 graduates in our class failed their boards!! That brings the percentage to an appalling 76% for the graduating class. Out of the actual class that was admitted for 2011? 63%! if these are not alarming statistics for the ARC, then I don't know what is.

If any of you have acceptances elsewhere, please keep these alarming statistics in mind and go elsewhere!! The level of disorganization and the biased grading system is above and beyond appauling!!

I am sorry to scare any of you, but these words are the truth and I personally would have loved it if there was someone who said this to me. :( It was 2 years of pure hell, and if I could go back in time and go to another program where I really felt competent in medicine I would have done this without any hesitation. Take this news as you wish!

Were you in the Pittsburgh or puerto Rico campus?

Was your experience bad with classes and preparation or rotations? I was planning

To apply there next year.

rotations were actually ok. Yea traveling was an issue and I did have two rotations cancel on me and had to relocate (again the disorganization).....but the preceptors were good. I did feel unprepared for rotations I must admit. With PBL being the MAIN educational process at chatham there will be many basic medical information that will not be covered. I strongly believe that PBL is leaving too much for the student to learn (especially in a very fast paced 9 months of didactic education) when other programs have an additional 2-3 months to learn the didactic basics. On rotations there were some stressful times when preceptors would quiz me and I did not know the answers, but I always looked it up and re-explained the pathology.

Thanks for your response. Did you feel unprepared for the PANCE? and how is your job search going?

During my PANCE, I felt there both ends of the spectrum there. There were many questions on the test that I felt unprepared for. On the other hand, I used all the review books for the PANCE and barely passed...but I passed!

I will tell one experience I encountered during an interview. A hiring director mentioned he was weary hiring chatham graduates due to his past experiences where he did in fact hire chatham graduates and they "flaked" out on the offers. I dunno, take it as you wish.....if Im out to bash the program....then I am... and it is deserving. sorry

I don't understand the cause of the "flaking out" on offers but thank you for sharing your experience. I contacted some students at the program via Facebook and they echoed your sentiments as well. Btw, have you had luck finding employment?

Hello,

If you want the facts about the program, you need to ask the right person. Here are the facts...

Out of the 71 students who started with the class of 2011, we had a total attrition of 11. This represents an attrition rate of 15.5% not 11%. This category may include students who withdraw for personal reasons, those that are decelerated for academic or personal reasons, those requesting a leave of absence for personal reasons, or those who are dismissed for academic reasons (which include failing more than one course or dismissal for professionalism issues). Yes, this is the highest attrition rate that we have had in the last five years but it does not represent a trend, as the owner of the post wrote. The truth is that of those 11 students, only 4 were dismissed for academic reasons. This represents a dismissal rate of only 5.6%. Also, only 3 students in this class were decelerated, not 6. Of the remainder 4 students, 2 withdrew for personal reasons and 2 requested a leave of absence. The number of withdrawals varies from year to year and may be due to several reasons, which more often than not tend to be non-academic.

In respect to the PANCE, it is true that 14 graduates, out of 60, did not meet the minimum criteria to pass. This represents a 76.67% pass rate for this class. This is the lowest pass rate that we have seen in the last five years. Here are the rates for the classes of 2006 through 2010 (which we post on our website):

- Class of 2006: 93%

- Class of 2007: 96%

- Class of 2008: 100%

- Class of 2009: 92%

- Class of 2010: 100%

Interestingly enough, four graduates from this class scored 800 in the PANCE, the highest score that we have ever seen in any class. The average score of those who passed was 559, the highest in over 6 years.

So the question that remains is... What happened to those 14 graduates? We do not know for sure. Nonetheless, we are performing a complete review of all our processes, procedures and policies to see if there is anything that may correlate with these results. In the event that we find a correlation with these results during our review, we will make sure to implement the appropriate modifications to ensure that this does not happen again. As soon as our review is completed, I will post the results on this forum as we have nothing to hide. Please be aware that the recent rate does not represent a trend either and that we have been very successful in preparing our students for clinical practice for over 15 years, as evidenced by actual surveys from preceptors and employers who praise or hire our graduates above all others in the region.

To make it absolutely clear to everyone... the program is responsible for preparing students for clinical practice but we do not teach the boards. We expect our students to understand what it is to be a self-directed, adult learner and to be responsible for their own learning. Therefore, it is the student's responsibility to ensure that they use the knowledge and skill they acquired, together with the tools and resources that we provide them, to help them prepare for the PANCE.

It is unfortunate that this individual succumbed to the urge of making false, slanderous accusations and baseless allegations over exercising common sense and maintaining dignity. This individual is definitively not representative of a Chatham, PA graduate.

Cave ne lectorem

Luis A. Ramos, MS, PA-C

Director and Assistant Professor

Physician Assistant Program

Chatham UNIVERSITY

Woodland Road

Pittsburgh, PA 15232

Phone: 412-365-1405 Fax: 412-365-1623

As a Chatham graduate, I am saddened that one would feel the need to speak of the program this way. Chatham is definitely a difficult program, not for the weak or lazy. You get out of it what you put into it. As a PA, I precept multiple students throughout their second years from multiple different programs and feel that Chatham students are definitely well prepared and ahead of other programs. The way the program is set up, students are very confident in approaching a patient and obtaining an accurate history and physical without a second thought - this is because of the 9 months spent learning and perfecting it. I would say that if the above was so unhappy with the program he/she certainly could have gone to another program after the first semester.

I personally passed the boards on the first attempt by a large margin. I also obtained my first and current job from my rotations. If Chatham students are said to "flake out" it is only because they have been taught to do the research and know what they are worth.

I would advise anyone considering Chatham, do your research and schedule a visit to speak to current students, faculty and observe PBL and the program, rather than taking the word of a disgruntled student/graduate. Many of the faculty are graduates of the program so I think that speaks volumes for their belief in the program.

Are you currently a PA? What specialty are you practicing in?

As a Chatham graduate, I am saddened that one would feel the need to speak of the program this way. Chatham is definitely a difficult program, not for the weak or lazy. You get out of it what you put into it. As a PA, I precept multiple students throughout their second years from multiple different programs and feel that Chatham students are definitely well prepared and ahead of other programs. The way the program is set up, students are very confident in approaching a patient and obtaining an accurate history and physical without a second thought - this is because of the 9 months spent learning and perfecting it. I would say that if the above was so unhappy with the program he/she certainly could have gone to another program after the first semester.

 

I personally passed the boards on the first attempt by a large margin. I also obtained my first and current job from my rotations. If Chatham students are said to "flake out" it is only because they have been taught to do the research and know what they are worth.

 

I would advise anyone considering Chatham, do your research and schedule a visit to speak to current students, faculty and observe PBL and the program, rather than taking the word of a disgruntled student/graduate. Many of the faculty are graduates of the program so I think that speaks volumes for their belief in the program.

Seems that these were not false claims as you supported them yourself.

 

the bigger concern is that this graduate felt a need to post on a national web site instead of actually talking to the program. I have seen times in the past that this is an indicator of a dysfunctional professional environment where the staff is not listening to it's students. By my figuring you had a class of 71, 14 and 11 didn't pass/washed out so only 46 out of 60 passed the boards of the accepted class - sorry that is a horrible stat and your program did something wrong to allow this to happen. The students entrusted you to teach them and gave up on life for 2+years, went into huge debt, and deserve better then a ~65% rate to finish and pass the boards from the initial class. What is this same stat for Medical schools?? Go look it up if you don't know it, and you will hang "your programs head" in shame.......

 

Personally I commend the student to post on this forum with concerns of a program as it allows a sliver of inside info to be shared with other.

 

I hope your program will take a serious look at why this class has suffered so much and only managed to get such a crappy number of students through the program and passing the boards.....

I'm not sure about that. There are numerous reasons that students may not succeed, and nobody here can know if it was program related or specific to the student and their choices/work ethic/study habits/etc....

Furthermore a student/PA choosing to speak out on a forum may just mean that the student/PA feels strongly (right or wrong) and has their own biases against the faculty.

Nobodt knows the facts except those invovled' we're not in the position to judge the quality of the program/faculty.

I am currently practicing, in Emergency Medicine.

I am currently practicing, in Emergency Medicine.

Does the school have a cadaver lab? And where did you do rotations? Only in Pittsburgh or?

Does the school have a cadaver lab? And where did you do rotations? Only in Pittsburgh or?

I would have to echo Caveat emptor's words. Not only was there a lot of attrition for various reasons, there were documented cases of harassment (copies of emails) of students by faculty just to see if the faculty could "break" the students or as stated in the email "get under the student's skin".

There are also documented instances of changing academic standards for a course after course completion from that published in the syllabus. Several instances in which the syllabus was very explicit about passing criteria but the faculty member went out of their way to "punish" and fail the student for the course DESPITE the fact that the student had met ALL the criteria required for passing the class as outlined in the syllabus! This has happened on at least three documented situations!  So, not only will you get harassed but EVEN if you do meet the criteria outlined in the syllabus for passing, you may not pass the class depending on the mood of the professor!

This event was not singular. It has happened several times in the academic and clinical rotation years. In some cases, this ruined students lives for life! Bottom line, the school is more concerned with their reputation, profit and keeping rotation sites than the student experience and the learning environment.

The response posted by "laramos" was very misleading in stating the student attrition was for "academic or personal reasons." Academic reasons includes events outlined above where the students actually MET the syllabus criteria for passing but the professor failed the student. Another example, one of the students "decelerated" was a well respected physician educated abroad. This student was decelerated because of political and interpersonal relations with some of the more denigrating faculty (it's believed they were threatened because he was actually more knowledgable than they on many subjects).

Another example of harassment, is with the PA programs guidance to study in groups and use peer-to-peer learning to enhance the PBL experience. Then faculty investigated the student(s) and demanded their files, computers and various other materials accusing them of cheating. This has happened not once but several times with the most recent student being forced to withdraw after 2.5 years of paying Chatham tuition and being decelerated the first year!<br><br>As for not bringing any of this up to faculty or deans, it was brought to the attention of all faculty (including "laramos"), graduate deans and the dean of the university.  Nothing has been done recently AND nothing was done back in 2005 when similar events occured! From what I hear, it is being addressed with the ARC as well as other means (legally). From what alumni have told me this is not new. It has been going on since 2005 with many complaints and law suits!

Bottom line, the school is more concerned with their profit and rotation sites than with teaching the students (oh wait, they don't teach they just give you the opportunity to graduate from a PA program, you have to teach yourself!). In reality, the Chatham program could easily be a 100% online degree with the professors complete apathy and abandonment of teaching responsibility.

So for any of you out there looking at PA schools, read these comments and experiences well!. I would definitely suggest you find another university to attend or at least "buyer beware" if you choose Chatham.<br><br>Also, if you want to check out other comments go to http://www.ratemyprofessor.com and look at the comments for the professors at your school of interest. Check out those for the Chatham professors too (Luis Ramos, Carol Ennulat, Susan Hawkins, Mark Hertweck, John Laird, Carl Garrubba, Heidi Felix, etc.).

^ are you a Chatham graduate or current student? I like the sound of a PBL curriculum but the way you made it sound is that there's absolutely no lecture/teacher support? Could you clarify this?

It is frustrating to read the posts of some of my classmates. Chatham's program has made some changes over the past few years, but at the end of the day, my academic experience was exactly as Chatham presented it to be. They were very upfront with what PBL was about. Unfortunately, problem based learning is a group experiential learning process. The quality of the learning experience is greatly affected by the communication skills, teamwork abilities, and personal responsibility each member brings to the process. A great PBL experience comes from understanding that the learning is not in finding the correct answer, but what you discover in the process of getting there. PBL is designed to give you the skills to be a life-long learner relevant to your daily practice.

I am very happy with my education from Chatham. Yes, there were bumps along the way, and our class may had more than other years. However, Chatham faculty delivered our education demanding professionalism and personal responsibility exactly as they said they would. I know that the faculty are likely hard at work looking at the changes that were made between our years and previous years trying to tease out what happened and why, because one thing that was demonstrated over and over again by the faculty is that they do want the program to function well, and for graduates to leave with the skills and learning appropriate for a new graduate. They just do not use the traditional text-book approach. If you are looking for a traditional education, then do not choose Chatham.

OK OK.....so for the past week or so I have contemplated on whether or not to post to this thread. The truth is that the creator of this thread has spoken out as a whistleblower to unleash the truth about Chatham and to warn others about the hidden information that faculty wishes to keep quiet. So, I thought I would chip in and provide additional info.

First off, I am appalled (more likely very upset) that even the program director cannot tell the truth!!! The truth is there were more students who were placed into the same category of decelerated students than what he can admit to (3). I know this because I AM ONE OF THEM!! Or….was one of them until I too withdrew from the institution for what the program director places into the category of “personal reasons.” Well I withdrew for the reason that I was upset with the level of education and professionalism coming from faculty. I believe that the level of education at Chatham is not what an accredited program should be. For instance, we get one class as a lecture (anatomy/phys) that is taught by a Naturopathic Doctor…. Very approachable professor… However! Disliked the fact that he copies his lecture notes and quiz questions and exam questions that are required for passing the course directly from the Board Review Series books (Gross Anatomy, Physiology, Neuroanatomy, cardiopulmonary, immunology). YES ladies and gents…. Word for word. Shameful that the university has its students sign an honor code…and in that honor code is a part of plagiarism and its consequences if we as students violate that. How can the institution hold its students accountable for any ethical principles when the institution itself violates them?!

The PBL process does have its ups and downs, it is an entirely different approach to learning, and I have to echo Robert Forest (whoever that is) that it is too much for the student to learn by themselves without guidance from some aspect of faculty guidance. Faculty is merely there to cut out the drama if arises (and some don’t even do that…..will let it ride). If one presents wrong medical information…..they’ll let that ride too…and you will leave the day with inadequate and wrong medical information (not all the time…but it happens) and it shouldn’t!

The cadaver lab? Pfffttt we get 30 minutes of cadaver lab per week! might as well say there is no cadaver lab.

To echo on Ventana’s statements, I praised your rebuttal comments and will quote, “I have seen times in the past that this is an indicator of a dysfunctional professional environment where the staff is not listening to it's students.” Ventana…..You could not have stated more truthful and honest words in its relationship to Chatham University. The faculty does in fact lack a single sense of professionalism and integrity. One great example of unprofessionalism (whistle blowing at its finest) is when the institution blatantly violated the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) which under federal law is a proposed regulation that applies to all educational institutions to protect the privacy of student education records (and yes this includes student grades). Every student in that current class and their grades on every examination up to date was attached in what was supposed to be a confidential email but was delivered to the entire class’ email via the institution. The worst part is the students that were at risk for failing…..their names were highlighted. This was an ultimate and unnecessary walk of shame on those poor students and was very detrimental to their image amongst the rest of the class!! This incident was a blatant violation of educational privacy……and what happened in a follow up email? A threat from the faculty stating it would be against the honor code and how unprofessional it is if we “accidently opened the attachment and read the contents!” as if it was the students fault in the first place! Rather than apologizing in a student meeting, they turned it against us with a threatening email. A dysfunctional professional environment does in fact hinder the learning environment and forces an aroma of wretchedness and failure. I hope this doesn’t happen with the new class! When will the institutions own graduates begin to think highly of the institution rather than posting on this forum warning others “Go elsewhere” and stop spreading advice of “Go see this lawyer….he or she is really good against chatham” NO PROGRAM should have its own graduates saying these things!! But chatham does ladies and gents…. Ok I have to get off and move on…. It literally has ruined my education and aspirations to become a PA.

wow... thanks for filling us in - i was invited to an interview here yesterday, and will strongly consider the points when deciding whether or not to go. what a bummer! ive looked into loads of programs, and the students are usually pretty enthusiastic about their education/program so this really comes as a shock. thanks for your input , and im sorry for all the hardships you were mde to go through.

Hi, can someone please explain several things to me. I have applied to Chatham and already did the interview, but now am awaiting a letter to see if I have been accepted. Reading this post has incresaed my anxiety level from 20% to 1345%%.

My fear is to get inro a program like this, not pass or learn anything, and then get sent home in the end with loads of debt that I am responsible for. Like most people, I cannot afford for this to happen. I have emailed NUMEROUS students from Chatham and not one person has gotten back to me, making me believe that all that was said above was TRUE. ARe studenst being told not to reply to any questions or concerns?

Haw hard is the program? Where are the exams coming from if we are laerning on our own. The PBL I thought was really interesting, but will there NOT be any sort of guidance of what we will be tested on? Please explain. I have been waiting for explanations for weeks.

I need to know that I am making the right decision. This can either change my life for the better or ruin it.

Hi, can someone please explain several things to me. I have applied to Chatham and already did the interview, but now am awaiting a letter to see if I have been accepted. Reading this post has incresaed my anxiety level from 20% to 1345%%.

My fear is to get inro a program like this, not pass or learn anything, and then get sent home in the end with loads of debt that I am responsible for. Like most people, I cannot afford for this to happen. I have emailed NUMEROUS students from Chatham and not one person has gotten back to me, making me believe that all that was said above was TRUE. ARe studenst being told not to reply to any questions or concerns?

Haw hard is the program? Where are the exams coming from if we are laerning on our own. The PBL I thought was really interesting, but will there NOT be any sort of guidance of what we will be tested on? Please explain. I have been waiting for explanations for weeks.

I need to know that I am making the right decision. This can either change my life for the better or ruin it.

please look at my last comment and help clarify

please look at my last comment and help clarify

i dont know anything, but some students have passed with a 100% on their pance... so, you get out of it what you put into it.. im sure that there is structure

i dont know anything, but some students have passed with a 100% on their pance... so, you get out of it what you put into it.. im sure that there is structure